How to Get Open Crumb from Stiff Dough [Video]

(Originally Published on March 2, 2016 by Trevor Wilson)

Be sure to check out the pictures and additional instructions below!

There’s this myth out there that the only way to get a light airy open crumb is to make a high hydration dough. A wet dough. And it’s this wet dough that will give you all the openness you could ever want.

This notion is misleading, at best.

Unfortunately, it’s usually the first and only direction prescribed for those looking to get a lighter more open texture from their bread. The problem is that wet dough can be very difficult to work with, especially for newer bakers.

So what happens when folks rush to add more water to their dough in the quest for open crumb?

They get sticky, difficult to work with dough. They have trouble mixing the dough. They have trouble shaping the dough. They have trouble baking the dough.

And the result?

Flat, limp and lifeless loaves. The crumb may be a bit more open, but at what cost?

It’s frustrating and disheartening. And it discourages many potential bakers from going forward. If the results continue to disappoint — if they don’t justify the trial of the process — then why even bother?

So let me be very clear here: hydration is only one variable. A big one, for sure, but only one nonetheless. And if that wasn’t clear enough . . .

More often than not, high hydration is a crutch.

It’s used to improve openness by bakers who either don’t know of, or are unable to find another way. But for most, increasing hydration should be the last resort.

Instead of looking to hydration to solve their tight-crumb woes, more bakers would be better served looking first to their dough handling skills. Improve those, and an improved crumb is sure to follow.

Well shit.

I know nobody likes to be told to improve their hand skills, but for those serious about making quality open crumbed bread, it’s a fundamental aspect of the craft. In the pursuit of professional quality bread, good dough handling ability is not optional.

Let me repeat: when it comes to making great bread, good dough handling is Not. An. Option. It’s a prerequisite.

And I say this as a 15 year veteran of the craft who’s still to this day striving to improve his own dough handling skills. It’s a never ending quest. Complacency just won’t do.

So with all that said, I’m now going to show you a method in which I can consistently make a loaf — with beautiful open crumb — from a relatively stiff dough (65% hydration).

Please keep in mind that a well made loaf with 65% hydration isn’t going to have the same degree of openness as a well made loaf at 80% hydration.

But does it even need to?

At 65% hydration, this loaf manages a more open crumb than many poorly made eighty-percenters out there. Of course, there are plenty of folks who absolutely love a wildly open molten crumb, and the custardy texture that comes with it. They want huge tunnels riddled throughout the loaf. In that case, this loaf probably ain’t gonna cut it.

But I’d argue that for most people out there, this is exactly the kind of crumb they’ve been looking for. And instead of constantly pushing for a higher hydration in order to get it, they should instead focus first on improving their handling of stiffer doughs.

When you can consistently make open-crumbed 65% hydration bread, then move on to 70%. And then 75%. And so on.

By the time you hit 80-85% hydration, you’ll be well prepared to handle such extremely wet dough. Instead of flat crappy loaves, you’ll be making beautifully plump loaves with a crumb even Chad Robertson would be proud of.

Let’s begin, shall we?

Step 1: Mix Your Pre-Dough

436g Bread Flour
24g Whole Wheat Flour
290g Water
10g Salt

Using a “pre-mix” method I’ve detailed here, I make the dough using all the water, salt and flour. This is just a quick mix to incorporate all the ingredients and bring them together into a shaggy lump — just like you would with a true autolyse, except we’ve included the salt.

Because this “pre-dough” will sit overnight, it will undergo all the effects of the autolyse method. It doesn’t matter that we’ve included the salt. Yes, the salt slows down the enzymatic activity a bit as compared to a normal autolyse, but the long overnight rest will more than make up for it.

This long overnight soaking of the flour will create a softer and more extensible dough than we would otherwise get using such low hydration — and without all the stickiness that comes by adding extra water. This will help us to create a loaf that will generate excellent ovenspring during baking. And ovenspring is one of the key ingredients to achieving a light and open crumb.

Step 2: Refrigerate/Rest Overnight

After you’ve mixed the “pre-dough”, cover the bowl and toss it into the fridge for a few hours to chill. Bringing the dough to refrigerator temperature will slow and delay the enzymatic activity that comes from adding water to flour. The combination of salt and cold helps to prevent any wild fermentation or off flavors that might develop from the long rest, especially in warmer weather.

Now, just before you head off for bedtime, take your chilled dough out of the fridge and set it on the counter for the night. It’ll slowly come up to room temp as it sits overnight. By the time you wake up and start working with the dough in the morning it’ll have become a soft and pliable mass, far different from the stiff shaggy lump it was the night before.

Step 3: Add Starter

50g Starter @ 100% Hydration (25g All-Purpose Flour, 25g Water)

Weigh out your starter and gently work it into the dough. Remember, the dough is already fully developed from it’s long overnight rest . . .

So be gentle.

You don’t want to overwork the dough. If the dough starts to tear, you’ve pushed it too far. Just back off, let it relax for a few minutes, then start up where you left off. It’s not hard to work in the starter, but it can be a bit tricky to get it fully incorporated without damaging the dough.

It’s a stop and start process.

I’ll describe the method I use, but watching the video will better help you to see what’s going on here:

First, I spread out the starter on top of the dough. Then I dimple it in to help work it into the matrix of the dough. After that, I stretch and fold the dough over and over until it’s formed a ball.

This creates several layers of starter throughout the dough.

Then I “spread” the starter throughout the loaf with a combination of rolling it up into itself, almost like traditional kneading, and spinning it around the edge of the bowl while tucking the outside into the center as I turn the bowl.

Like I said, it’s easier to just watch the video and see what I’m doing for yourself.

As soon as I feel the dough beginning to tighten up, I give it a few pulls across the bowl to make the surface nice and taught, then I cover it and let it sit for 5-10 minutes to relax. Then I come back for another round.

I typically give it 3 rounds of this treatment over the course of a half-hour. That’s enough to get the starter evenly incorporated throughout the whole loaf.

Now that we’ve added our starter, the dough is complete. Toss it into a clean bowl to begin proofing.

Step 4: Bulk Fermentation/Folds

The combination of stiff dough and small starter inoculation should make for a slow proofing dough. This is good; it’s what we want. The longer the proof, the better the flavor and more open the crumb will be.

I average around 6 hours, but your time may vary based on temperature and the peculiarities of your starter.

During the course of bulk fermentation I’ll usually give the dough a few folds. Not to develop the gluten, mind you — we’ve already done that. But to help give the loaf better structure, and as a little extra insurance to be certain the starter is evenly spread throughout the dough.

I usually give it folds every 2 hours after mixing. This works out to 3 folds, with the last happening right before I turn out the dough and pre-round the loaf (see video). These folds must become increasingly gentle as the dough begins inflating, so as not to expel any of the gasses.

Important: any time you deflate your dough, even it it’s just a wee bit, you will negatively affect the quality of the crumb. It becomes tighter and denser. So be careful.

Step 5: Pre-Round

As noted above, my last fold is performed right before turning the dough out onto the bench. The folding helps to release the dough from the bowl while giving it additional structure. I consider it part of the pre-rounding process.

But keep in mind, a gentle hand is required when folding this late into the proof.

Once your dough is turned out, simply grab your bench knife and carefully pre-round the loaf as depicted in the video. If you’ve never used a bench knife for pre-rounding, it does take a bit of practice. But it won’t be long before you get it. No need for flour here. Just wet the hand that touches the loaf, and be sure to keep the blade pressed firmly against the bench as you roll up the dough — otherwise you’ll cut into the dough and damage the integrity of the loaf.

Let your pre-round rest for at least 30 minutes. If you timed your bulk fermentation right, and if the dough is moving slow enough, you can even let it rest up to 60 minutes. This is preferable. I’ve noticed that a slightly young dough, pre-rounded and left to rest for an hour before shaping, makes for a more open crumbed loaf.

But don’t push it.

If your pre-round gets to the point where it will start degassing upon handling, then you can kiss that nice open crumb goodbye. Better to give it a short rest before shaping than to let it overproof on the bench.

Step 6: Shape for Open Crumb

There are as many ways to shape a loaf as there are bakers. So use whichever method works best for you.

That said, for this loaf I used a boule shaping method I learned from the French Master, Gerard Rubaud. I’ve since seen it used elsewhere, but I often use it when shaping stiffer doughs (though Gerard uses it when pre-rounding his high hydration dough, to great effect).

What I like about this method is that the folds really help to add structure to the loaf, allowing for a better ovenspring and more open crumb. To my eyes, this makes for a noticeably lighter texture when using such a stiff dough than I would get if I simply just rounded the loaf up on the bench without the added folds.

Also, not shown in the video, after shaping I let the loaf sit on the table for 5-10 minutes before putting it seam side up in the basket. This helps the seam on the underside to form a better seal before you invert it into the basket — it won’t be so quick to unravel as it would if you placed it in the basket immediately after shaping.

And as always, great care should be taken when shaping. The gentler your touch, the lighter the loaf. Don’t be fooled by what you see in my video; don’t mistake confident hands and assertive movements for rough handling.

Your touch should be that of a lover’s. Firm, yet gentle. Confident, not timid.

If your dough loses gas at any point during your shaping then you are being too rough.

Don’t worry though, dough handling is a feel-based skill that continuously improves. Every single new baker mangles some loaves, yours truly included. Over time your touch will become more confident, you’ll find the dough sticking to your hands less often, and your loaves will become lighter and lighter.

Always strive to shape the perfect loaf, even knowing that perfection is impossible.

Step 7: Proof

Simple enough here, right? Proof until your loaf is ready to bake. Two to four hours, maybe (mine took just over 3 on this day).

Unfortunately, I can’t say exactly how long it’ll take. Again, it depends upon several variables — temperature, starter activity, quality of shaping (well shaped loaves hold more tension and can proof longer and to greater volume), dough quality, etc.

Of course, the standard rule of thumb is to proof until the dough just slowly springs back when you press your finger into the loaf. But I find that to be an inadequate generalization. I suppose it provides a “well-enough” starting point for inexperienced bakers, but overtime you’ll find it to be too simplistic.

Wet doughs and baguettes tend to spring best when placed into the oven slightly before that point. Stiff doughs can hold out a bit beyond that point. Poorly shaped loaves hold too little tension from the get go for this test to be reliable. Spelt bread is so soft and extensible that the finger poke test tells you nothing at all. Pan loaves differ from free-standing loaves.

And there are a thousand more examples of why this method of judging isn’t wholly reliable.

Plus, I just hate poking my finger into proofing loaves. It’s counter to my philosophy of gentle handling.

So how best to judge when it’s time to bake?

Sadly, there’s no one-size fits all answer here. A good starting point is simply by eyeballing the increase in volume — if you make the same loaf over and over again, experience will teach you about what size the loaf should be when it’s almost ready. And with a very light pressing touch, you’ll be able to determine how much further you should let it go.

I know that’s not a very useful answer, but it’s the truest.

Learning to appropriately judge the degree of proofing a loaf needs is just another one of those skills you develop with time and experience. It can be frustrating in the early stages when you see the loaf flatten out and you realize you let it proof too long, or when you see that you’ve baked the loaf too soon and lost greater volume and lighter crumb as a result.

So start with the finger-poke test, if you must. I did. But then spread your wings.

Step 8: Score and Bake

Grab your cast iron dutch oven or combo cooker, toss it into the oven, and preheat to 450 degrees Fahrenheit for at least 30 minutes (I usually let it go 45-60 minutes). When it’s ready, carefully turn your loaf out and score in your preferred manner. For this loaf I used a tic tac toe pattern because it really helps to encourage a full ovenspring.

Bake your loaf covered for 20 minutes, remove the lid (and rotate 180 degrees if your oven doesn’t bake evenly), and bake for another 20-30 minutes. I generally bake my loaves dark, but not ridiculously so. And some loaves I tend to bake on the lighter side. It just depends on what I’m aiming for.

So bake to whatever degree of color and crust you like. I was perfectly happy baking this loaf for a total of 45 minutes.

Step 9: Cool and Enjoy!

Congratulations! If all went well, you should now have a tasty sourdough loaf with a light open crumb.

Be sure to let it cool fully before cutting into it — at least 2 hours. Of course, if you want to dig in while it’s still warm, I won’t fault you for that. Just keep in mind that if you cut into the loaf before the crumb has fully set, you’ll be doing some damage to its structure. So it’s up to you how to proceed here.

If your loaf didn’t turn out so light and airy as you’d like, just keep at it. Skill takes time to develop, but it won’t be long before you start seeing improvements in your technique and dough handling ability. With a little patience, you’ll get it.

Whatever you do, don’t rush to increase hydration.

That’s not the answer here. If you can’t gently coax an open crumb from a stiffer dough like this, you’re only gonna run into even more trouble when you start making the dough wetter and stickier.

Give yourself the time required to develop feel and intuition first. It may not seem like you’re progressing very fast, but in the long run you’ll find it far less frustrating. Ultimately, you’ll progress further than you would’ve had you been getting ahead of yourself in a rush to work with highly hydrated doughs.

I hope this post was helpful. Until next time . . .

Cheers!

Trevor J. Wilson

Original comments no longer active.

Comments

1. Katherine saysApril 13, 2016 at 10:24 AMGreat post! Thanks ?Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysApril 13, 2016 at 12:22 PMThanks Katherine! I’m glad you liked it. Cheers!TrevorReply
   • roger harmon saysJanuary 7, 2017 at 5:36 PMTrevor the best of any explanation I have ever you have hopefully given me a big help as my normal bread is grate but just learning about sourdough you have all the questions I have and no one else has gone close to you about time someone with the knowledge has shared. regards roger.thanks heeps.Reply
     • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 1:56 PMThanks Roger! I’m glad you’ve found the post helpful! I do my best to give fresh insight into every aspect of the process — it makes for long articles, but I’m glad to know it’s worth it for those who read them through. Cheers!TrevorReply
2. dan saysApril 14, 2016 at 6:09 AMHi Trevor,
   I’ve just found your website through your instagram account which I found by accident looking at a comment someone else had put on. really helpful video’s and blog which is great for amateur bakers like myself. Like the different method and will certainly give it a try as will help with scheduling my baking around working and young kids!!. more generally, really heflpul little techniques to improve my sourdough baking. cheers
   DanReply
   • Trevor Wilson saysApril 14, 2016 at 7:48 AMHey Dan, thanks for the kind words. I’m glad you’re finding my website helpful. It’s still a work in progress, but I’ll keep adding more videos and articles as I go. Meanwhile, I wish you the best of luck in your sourdough baking adventures. Cheers!TrevorReply
3. Victoria saysApril 20, 2016 at 2:11 AMHi ! I’m now doing this dough by following step by step 😀 may I know at step 7, can I let it proof overnight in the refrigerator? Thanks !Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysApril 20, 2016 at 8:54 AMAbsolutely Victoria! Every bread recipe and every method is really just a guideline. A starting point. It’s up to individual bakers to adapt things to their own needs. And besides, retarding bread in the refrigerator usually results in an even more open crumb. So it’s a win win!Cheers!TrevorReply
     • Alex saysDecember 19, 2017 at 11:26 AMHello there!
       Great posts, I double everything everybody said here already. It might be my impression from a different hemisphere but I find the taste of the breads that had their proofing retarded on the fridge to be more complex and deeper besides the more open crumbs, as you said yourself, for the slower but still active proofing. This comes from my 3 month experience as a baker, but I’m having a blast with this experience. Your tutorials really made a huge difference on my technique and what/how to pursuit (and eventually achieve, hopefully) a better loaf every time.Thanks and keep pushing!Reply
       • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 20, 2017 at 9:55 PMThanks for the kind words Alex! I’m glad you’ve been finding my work helpful! You’re in good company — many folks prefer the taste of dough that’s been retarded in the fridge, and for the very same reasons you’ve mentioned . . . complexity of flavor and openness of crumb. These things are always a matter of taste. I’m glad you’ve been getting into the bread baking process — once you’ve been bitten by the baking bug, it’s all over!Cheers!TrevorReply
4. Renée saysApril 26, 2016 at 12:38 PMHi Trevor,
   Gorgeous bread love the techniques to making such a perfect dough.
   Definitely on my list to bake.Thanks for sharing.Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysApril 26, 2016 at 4:37 PMHi Renée, thanks for the kind words! I hope the method works out well for you, and be sure to let me know how it goes. Best of luck!TrevorReply
5. Joanna Chew saysMay 2, 2016 at 2:49 AMHi Trevor, thank you for the very thorough write up and video. Novice sourdough home baker here and this really helped! We followed this recipe, with some changes to suit our warm and humid South- east Asian weather (reduced BF and proofing times) and the boule turned out to be our lightest yet. The crumb was still not as open as yours- i suspect i mangled the dough a bit at the beginning to work the starter in- but we were very encouraged and satisfied with it. Will try your other recipes too!Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 2, 2016 at 9:03 AMThat’s great Joanna! Thank you for letting me know. I always love to hear success stories. I’m glad that you’re adapting the recipe and method to suit your own personal situation — that’s how it should be done.When it comes to open crumb, 80% of it comes down to just 2 things — proper fermentation and proper dough handling. Both are skills that come with practice. So the more you bake the better you’ll get, and the lighter your crumb will become. Best of luck!Cheers!TrevorReply
6. Agy saysMay 14, 2016 at 5:06 AMHi,
   What you wrote about learning bench work techniques before diving into wet dough spoke to me so I gave this recipe a shot even though I’ve been baking from Ken Forkish’s recipes in a while with quite good results.After adding in sour dough the mix became insanely sticky. Was impossible to work it the way you to it in this video so I used your technique for wet dough. Worked 2 times around 5 minutes each with 10 min break, then transfered dough to a clean bowl. S&F every 2 hours for 6 hours. Still sticky like hell, had to wet my hand, couldn’t use plastic scraper (dough was sticking to it). After 6 hours and last S&F I was sure like hell that if I have unflouered surface nothing good is going to come out of it, so I put a light coating. I tried to pre-shape with metal scraper but guess what? The second I touched it, the dough got stuck to it and would’t let go! I gently scraped it and used normal folding. Let it rest for around 45 minutes. After I came back I couldn’t flip the dough because it got stuck do the table surface, even with the flour I had on it. I gently scraped it and flipped it around. Shaped the way you did it with additional flour on hands and bit more on the table. Set it in the banneton with a mix of wheat and rye flour in, seam up. Set it in the fridge around 22, warmed the oven with dutch oven at 8 in the morning. Set a gently oiled baking paper on top of the banneton and a bowl on top of that. Flipped around (bread falls into the bowl, inside the baking paper). Cut the paper edges. I don’t score normally. Ken bakes seam side up, so the bread opens naturally. I didn’t have anything good on hand so I tried with a can top! (yes.) Baked 20 min in 240 Celcius covered and than around 25 more, uncovered.Obviously, I was expecting a tragedy. Every step of the way I was getting different results than you, had to use different methods to make it work. But surprisingly enough I took out this crazy loaf:
   http://s32.postimg.org/44hrm6k6t/DSC_0180.jpg
   http://s32.postimg.org/7ykemtgad/DSC_0182.jpg
   http://s32.postimg.org/l725yq7cl/DSC_0184.jpgI dig the wild look!
   At the same time, I’m curious. What happened? Why were our results so different right from the start?
   Looking forward to some feedback.Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 14, 2016 at 9:35 AMHi Agy, that’s definitely a very cool looking loaf! And the crumb is really nice! Well done. As for why your dough was so sticky, I can’t say without having been there in person to observe what was going on. Did the pre-mixed dough seem overly soft before you added the starter? Or was it a stiff shaggy clump?It could very well be that the flour you’re using can’t absorb as much water as the flour I’m using. Hydration is always just a guide — it’s going to vary from flour to flour and baker to baker. So we always need to adjust as necessary.If your dough was fine before adding the starter, and only then became super soft and sticky, then that’s probably something else — though I’m not quite sure what. The recipe doesn’t call for a lot of starter so the water it contains shouldn’t turn a stiff dough into a wet dough. It’s natural for the dough to be sticky and slimy after first adding the starter because the moisture has to work its way into the gluten matrix, but once it’s all worked in the dough should return to a more normal consistency. It sounds like your dough just stayed wet and sticky the whole time. It would take a lot more starter than called for in this recipe to do that — unless you’re using a higher hydration starter than the recipe calls for.Also, if you forgot to add salt it could have a similar effect. No salt = sticky dough, bland taste, and usually faster proofing.Oh, and if your starter was old and proteolytic then that could also cause similar problems. Proteolytic starter can speed the process of gluten degradation in your dough resulting in runny overly sticky dough. If your dough was tearing as it proofed, or if your bread has an overly sharp and acidic flavor then that’s a possibility.If I were you, I would give it one more try. If you experience the same results then this just might not be a good method for you. The things I would double check are: 1) The pre-mixed dough is a relatively solid clump of dough. Not stiff like Play-Doh, but solid and holds it’s shape fairly well. 2) The starter is 100% hydration and weighed the same as the amount in the recipe. 3) You’re using a good quality bread flour, or if you’re using all-purpose flour then reduce the hydration a bit because lower protein flours absorb less water.I hope that helps. If you give it another try then let me know how it goes. And if possible, take pictures of each stage of mixing. That might help in diagnosing the problems if they return. Cheers!TrevorReply
     • Agy saysMay 16, 2016 at 8:34 AMHi Trevor,
       Thanks for the reply! The dough was quite stiff and shaggy before adding the starter. My starter was normally 80% hydration with a mix of full wheat and white flower but for the purpose of this recipe I left 50g of it and fed with 100g white flour, 100g water a day before baking.
       I’m living in Norway and our market here does not have a huge diversity of products. I’m using flour with the following content (per 100g); 332kcal, 1,6g fat, 69,5g carbs, 10,2g protein, 3,6g fiber. The other one that I can have access to has: 350kcal, 2g fat, 68g carbs, 12g protein, 3,3g fiber. What’s your take on this?Think I’m going to give a shot to your wet dough recipe. I used the same mixing method that you use there and I really liked it.Reply
       • Mel saysMay 17, 2016 at 2:46 AMHi Agy,
         I live in Sweden and I’m really curious to see how you get along with this method. I’m going to start mine today and I’m guessing the flours I have access to are similar to the ones you have in Norway.
         Our in producers in Sweden are a bit lazy with sharing the information about protein levels but Kungsörnens Vetemjöl Special has a level of 11%. Ramlösa Kvarn (Finax) has a new series of flours for specialized baking but I can’t find information about the protein level. Their “Rustique” is meant to be a strong flour for sourdough bread. And if you are ever around Stockhom look for flour from Warbro Kvarn. They are a small local mill that sells their stone milled strong flours in shops around Stockholm. And if you’re around Västergötaland, look for Wästgötarna’s brand. They sell Ölandsvete, an old traditional type of wheat that’s very strong and makes great bread! I make my friends bring that flour to me when they come up to Stockholm. 😀Reply
       • Trevor Wilson saysMay 17, 2016 at 9:41 AMHi Agy, it looks to me like you’re using a much lower protein flour than I am. My flour is 12.7% protein, which is a strong bread flour, whereas yours is 10.2% protein, which is closer to what we would consider a pastry flour out here. As such, going strictly by my recipe you would end up with a wetter dough consistency than I get — though I would think that it should have been wetter even before adding the starter.If you try it again, adjust the hydration down by a few percentage points until you get something that looks more similar in consistency to the dough you see in the video.And if you decide to try out the wetter recipes here you’ll really need to drop the hydration if you’re using such low protein flour. And just be warned — they are difficult to work with. If you had trouble handling this dough when it came out wetter than expected, then you will have much more difficulty handling a dough that’s intentionally much wetter. In general, I believe it’s best to begin with stiff doughs and gradually work our way to wetter dough as our handling skills improve. But I’m also all for sometimes just taking the leap and seeing what happens. So best of luck! Let me know how it goes.Reply
         • Mel saysMay 17, 2016 at 10:12 AMIt’s really interesting to hear that your flour is 12,7 % protein. My standard flour for sourdough, the one the producer markets as their bread flour, only has 11%. I’m going to try your receipe tonight with the traditional old type of wheat which is meant to have a higher level of protein and see how I get along.Reply
           • Mel saysMay 18, 2016 at 5:16 AMSorry, feels like I’m spamming this post now…. But I just heard from a local flour producer that the Swedish 2015 wheat harvest was unusually low in protein levels and that their highest level spelt flour only reached 12% compared to 13% other years.
             I’m currently making this stiff sourdough and having the same sticky issues as Algy and I’m guessing the flour is the culprit. That flour, according to the farmer that grew it, varies between 10-12% in protein level. I’m going to continue with this batch but try again tonight and add less water.Reply
             • Trevor Wilson saysMay 18, 2016 at 8:14 AMHey Mel, you’re not spamming at all. Any informative contributions or questions are always welcome. Thanks for the insight!Reply
             • Agy saysMay 20, 2016 at 6:03 AMHi Mel, thanks for both of your replies. It’s good to know that I’m not the only one struggling, hehe 😛 I’ll be sure to check the swedish flours when I have the opportunity. I’ll be actually driving down to Denmark in September but Stockholm is sadly not on the way 🙁Trevor,
               I had the problems when I tried to use the stiff dough methodes. I’m actually used to quite high hydration doughs from FWSY by Ken Forkish but I’ll be sure to take the water % down a notch next time I bake. There is one more flour that I have access to at normal shops: spring wheat flour with protein content of 13g per 100g. I guess you recommend giving this a go instead? I was saving it for special occasion as it’s much more expensive haha…Reply
               • Trevor Wilson saysMay 20, 2016 at 8:53 AMInteresting. The 13% spring wheat flour you mention sounds much closer to the kind of flour I use, but I don’t think it’s necessary that you use the expensive stuff. Just reduce the hydration until you have a consistency that’s closer to what you see in the video. That should do the trick. You won’t get the same exact results as I get, but neither would you get the same results even if you were using the exact flour I use. That’s just the nature of baking. If you decide to give this method another try, let me know how it goes. Cheers!
           • Trevor Wilson saysMay 18, 2016 at 7:59 AMHi Mel, one thing to be keep in mind: protein quantity is only one factor when it comes to gluten formation. The other factor is protein quality. Sometimes those older wheat breeds might have a bit higher protein content, but the quality isn’t the same as a similar protein wheat from a modern breed. That’s not to say it won’t make good bread — often times they make much better bread — but that it might make a more delicate dough than just the protein quantity alone might suggest. Let me know how your experiment turns out. Cheers!Reply
         • Bob saysSeptember 4, 2016 at 8:13 PMHi Trevor,I found your site/videos by chance and glad I did. You’ve helped me take my baking to the next level I was seeking (unlike “52 Loaves”, I’m not heading to an Abbey but I am seeking the perfect loaf).I had the same sticky problem mentioned above. I traced my problem to old flour. I had taken a break from baking and hadn’t realized my flour was about a year old. I buy 50# bags of KA Sir Lancelot (I have a little bread-making side business going) stored in Cambro containers – not air tight. I tried your stiff dough recipe along with a poolish recipe from FWSY (a recipe I’ve done numerous times successfully). Both were goo which I tossed. I’ve recently replaced all my dated flours with fresh. I also switched from Lancelot to KA Special Patent (bread flour). Just pulled your Champlain Sourdough out of the oven with great oven spring and waiting to check the crumb. In 5 minutes, your Peasant Bread goes in. Yes, this is test day.Thanks for the insight,
           BobReply
           • Trevor Wilson saysSeptember 5, 2016 at 2:21 PMThanks Bob! I’m glad I’ve been able to help out a bit. That’s great that you were able to figure out the problem. Old flour can definitely make for some unpleasant dough. I’m also a fan of the KA Special Patent, so I’d say that’s a good choice. I primarily use KA bread flour for most of my recipes. I hope the peasant bread came out as nice as the Champlain Sourdough. Let me know if you have any questions.Cheers!TrevorReply
7. Anneliese Hunter saysMay 19, 2016 at 4:22 PMHi Trevor,I just discovered your blog through Instagram and it’s pretty much my favorite thing.I have five kids and a wood-fired bread oven, so I decided I needed to learn to make bread. I discovered the slap and fold method early on and it allowed me to run before I could walk…I was able to make this delicious, tangy, open crumb bread that was so perfect, chewy and creamy…the crust is crisp and mornings are awesomer.But I am left with poor shaping and poor slashing…and questions! I have questions. Oh, and my internet is kinda shit here.I have started making cinnamon raisin bread (’cause duh. five kids) and while I don’t mind the tighter crumb, I don’t quite understand why. And I’d like to be able to make it more open. I make regular sourdough loaves at the same time using the same starter. My sourdough loaves are light and airy (albeit not awesomely shaped or slashed), but the raisin bread…not so much.Anyway, I’m reading through your stuff, learning a lot and trying to adapt and adjust my technique…I watch your videos when I go to town and have a strong enough internet signal and they are really helpful. So, thanks! And can you proffer some insight into what’s happening with my raisin bread?Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 19, 2016 at 5:51 PMHi Anneliese, I’m glad you like my blog! It doesn’t sound to me like you ran before you could walk — if you’re happy with the bread you’re making then that means you’re walking just fine. Of course, it’s always fun to try different methods to expand our skills and pick and choose the bits we like and discard the bits we don’t.Regarding your raisin bread . . .Cinnamon slows down fermentation quite a bit. Especially if it’s been thoroughly mixed into the dough. So if you’re making your raisin bread at the same time as your other breads, and baking it at the same time, in reality that bread is likely underproofed which would explain the tighter crumb.If you would like your raisin bread to proof quicker you have a few options — you could increase the amount of starter, proof it at a warmer temperature, or adjust the way you mix in the cinnamon.Now, I don’t have enough information to say whether your mixing method might be causing the problem. I don’t know whether you mix the cinnamon in completely or whether you’re rolling the cinnamon into the dough to make a cinnamon swirl bread. But, if you are completely mixing the cinnamon into the dough then that only exacerbates the slowing effects. Here’s one thing you can do . . .Add in the cinnamon towards the very end of the mix, or as you’re folding the dough. That might be hard using slap and fold. The key is to get streaks of cinnamon throughout the dough instead of an even disbursement. When you distribute the cinnamon completely throughout the dough you’re pretty much exposing all the dough to the slowing effects of the cinnamon. But when you mix it in only enough to create streaks you only expose a small percentage of the dough to those effects.In bakeries, I would add cinnamon right towards the end of the mix and only allow it enough mixing until I had some nice streaks running throughout the dough. Then I would end the mix. The dough would proof quicker and be much more pliable (cinnamon absorbs water from the dough creating a stiffer dough when it’s mixed completely through — also contributing to a tighter crumb). So if you’re using slap and fold to develop your dough maybe try adding in the cinnamon starting with your first fold and letting it work it’s way in with later folds. Or maybe roll it in towards the end of your slap and fold session. I’d have to experiment to see for certain how best to proceed, but you can experiment as well.Another perk about mixing the cinnamon in as streaks is that it gives you a nice cinnamon swirl effect. It’s not a perfect spiral like in traditional cinnamon swirl bread, but there are beautiful swirls of cinnamon running throughout the loaf all the same.If I’m completely off base regarding how I’m imagining your raisin bread mix, please let me know. With more information I might be able to come up with some better suggestions. But I hope that helps. Cheers!TrevorReply
8. Ryan saysMay 20, 2016 at 10:49 PMHey Trevor,Just wanted to say that I am one of those beginners who fell into the high hydration trap too early. After a half dozen or so ok loaves and some disasters, I tried this method and was able to be more successful with my benchwork and was paid off with this loaf!http://imgur.com/qLIhyzy
   http://imgur.com/QB4qrpNDefinitely inspires more confidence and gives me something to keep practicing with. Thanks for sharing your techniques and taking the time to present it so well.Best regards from a fellow weightlifter,
   -RyanReply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 21, 2016 at 9:15 AMHey Ryan, your loaf is fantastic! Really well done, and great crumb! I’m glad that this method worked so well for you. It looks to me like you’re well on your way to making some pretty spectacular bread as your skills continue to improve. You’ll find that as you work your way up the hydration ladder it’ll likely be much easier to handle the wetter doughs than when you first tackled them. Seriously good stuff bro, thanks for sharing! Cheers!TrevorReply
9. Ako saysMay 23, 2016 at 8:26 PMHi Trevor,Could you tell me about difference in stretch and fold intervals?
   Champlain needs stretch and fold 6 times at 1hour intervals and this recipe needs 3 times at 2hours intervals. I would like to understand the effect of S&F method to the proofing.Thanks,
   AkoReply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 25, 2016 at 9:59 AMHi Ako, stretch and fold is really more of an intuitive thing. And it can vary from day to day and dough to dough. Or even mood to mood. So when you see me prescribe a certain number of stretch and folds at certain intervals, it’s really just a suggestion — not a rule. It’s up to each baker individually to determine when and how often to fold.Of course, it takes experience to learn these things so often times it’s practical to just follow the guidelines each recipe lays out for you. But in time you’ll be able to decide for yourself how to approach folding.Now, there are a couple different reasons to fold dough in the first place. Folding can be used as a mixing method to develop the gluten — as in the Tartine method. It can also be used on fully developed dough to help build structure into the loaf. That’s how I tend to approach folding since I fully develop my dough with mixing right from the start.What is structure?Structure is the inflation and distribution of the alveoli in your loaf — the little gas bubbles that will eventually form the crumb of your bread — along with the organization of the dough’s gluten. As air bubbles form inside the dough, raising the dough, they give body to the dough and allow it to hold shape. By folding, you redistribute those developing air pockets, as well as stretching and organizing the gluten.You have to find the right balance when folding. Too much folding can tighten the crumb, too little folding and your dough might not have enough structure or strength to hold a good shape while proofing. In general, the wetter (and weaker) the dough the more folding it can tolerate. So with Champlain Sourdough I gave it hourly folds, but this dough is quite a bit stiffer and so it doesn’t need as much folding in order to develop structure.I should probably just write an article on this subject. Anyway, I hope I answered your question. Let me know if you need more clarification. Cheers!Reply
     • Ako saysMay 26, 2016 at 7:51 PMHi Trevor,
       Please do write the article about S&F method.
       Now I’m accumulating the knowledge of sourdough baking. The more I do baking bread the deeper the knowledge would dawn on me.Thank you,
       AkoReply
       • Trevor Wilson saysMay 27, 2016 at 1:07 PMIt’s on my “to do” list!Reply
     • Ian saysJanuary 31, 2017 at 4:30 AMHey Trevor.
       Without making an unnecessarily long comment i would like to say a couple things. Your style of teaching is admirable–thorough, yet concise. And your humility is particularly refreshing as we’re discussing a topic which is usually dominated by people’s ego… anyhow, I’ve worked as a baker, in a relatively heartless situation, and while i benefit in physical technique to a degree, that’s where it stopped.
       I’m like many others: unfortunately misled by the general trend of baking in the last 10 years–too much water, not enough theory to make one’s own decisions.
       There is so much to consider and learn, and yet so few bakers out there teaching without an agenda and a book deal…
       No need to ramble on. Just wanted to say thanks. I would very much like it if you were to write an article on the afformentioned topic you alluded to. Your “entry level” writing and philosophy are great, but it would ALSO be great to hear from someone who’s got a better grasp on some of the bio/chem about why some of the techniques and practices we’ve all been taught are wildly considered to be “correct.”
       Again, thank you for the dissemination of your learnings and knowledge. I just pulled a loaf out of the oven, beautiful spring, cant wait to see the crumb, i expect good things.Reply
10. patricia saysMay 26, 2016 at 3:26 PMHi Trevor,can you explain when you say in the recipe a starter that is 100 percent hydration.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysMay 27, 2016 at 1:06 PMHi Patricia, hydration is the ratio of water to flour, based on weight. So 100% hydration means 100 parts water for every 100 parts flour, or a 1:1 ratio. Or more simply put, equal weights of water and flour. If it was 65% hydration that would mean 65 parts water for every 100 parts flour (all by weight). So for every 100 grams of flour in a recipe you would add 65 grams of water.So if a recipe calls for 50 grams of 100% hydration starter, that means the starter is made up of 25 grams water and 25 grams flour.I hope that helps. Cheers!Reply
      • Mary Ann saysOctober 4, 2017 at 10:05 PMHi Trevor, I love your video’s – I’ve been making bread for many years and the learning curve continues.
        My starter is very stiff. Can I weigh out 25 gm of starter and add 25 gm of water to make a 100% hydration? (Thank you for the simple explanation of hydration – I finally get it!)Reply
      • Nirvana saysJuly 23, 2018 at 8:50 PMLoving your blogs and videos in my sourdough journey – everything is explained so well! I’m a complete beginner so apologies in advance for this question but with your starter: to get the 50g do I just take a small amount of my fridge starter and then mix 1:1:1: fridge starter water flour and then once that’s left to activate for 8 hrs or so, measure out 50g for the recipe?Reply
11. Ako saysMay 28, 2016 at 4:59 PMHi Trevor,This is the best sourdough bread I’ve ever done! Thanks! If you have a time please have a quick look to my progress.
    http://www.thefreshloaf.com/blog/helloiamakoCheers,
    AkoReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysMay 30, 2016 at 9:55 AMThanks for the link to your blog over at TFL! You’re baking some very nice bread! Good stuff!Reply
12. Kevin saysMay 29, 2016 at 7:48 PMI must admit, you were correct in saying this is not for beginners. I’m a beginner and have been “had” by this bread. With me first attempt, I thought I had nailed it, but my starter crapped the bed. The dough felt wonderful and looked exactly like the doughs shown at various stages in your video. My second and third attempts with a healthier starter yielded wet sloppy messes. Admittedly, the third was made sans salt. I was distracted by my normal Sunday schedule and the assembly of a massive playset for my daughters.I decided to swallow my pride an have a go at the lower hydration recipe you suggested in your warnings to the proud noobs who may attempt to prove you otherwise. I am presently preheating the oven for its bake. So far, so good. It looks like it will turn out well.Tomorrow, I plan on my third attempt at the Tartine. I am not sure what to try differently aside from spending more time in the autolyse phase and adding the salt. I live in western NC where the temps and humidities are beginning to rise.Keep the posts coming! I’m really digging my new passion and hope to learn as much as possible from your posts.Do you have a special starter recipe you use?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysMay 30, 2016 at 10:01 AMHi Kevin, I’m glad to hear that you’re really getting into this baking hobby. It’s addictive, for sure. I think you’ll find that after getting a handle on the stiffer doughs, it’ll be easier to work your way back up to the wetter ones. With the growing heat and humidity you’ll find wet dough even more sticky and difficult to handle. There’s no shame in reducing the amount of water in a recipe this time of year — professionals do the same thing every Summer.Bread baking is never a static craft — it requires constant adaptation. Hence my motto, “Adjust as necessary.” I hope your loaf came out well, and good luck with your next Tartine loaf. Cheers!TrevorReply
13. Agy saysJune 1, 2016 at 11:45 AMTrevor, I wanna give this one more shot tomorrow. I’m getting ready for my autolyse but can I change the proportions of white to whole flour? I like bread with around 30% whole wheat best 🙂Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJune 1, 2016 at 4:50 PMAbsolutely. You can change anything you like! But you’ll probably need to increase the hydration a bit in order to maintain the same consistency of dough. Just play around with it and it won’t take long to figure out how much water to add. Let me know how it goes.Reply
      • Agy saysJune 2, 2016 at 12:38 PMHi Trevor,
        I went with 135g whole and 315g white flour and actually decreased the amount of water to 270g since my flour has less protein than yours. Everything was going fine but when I tried to score the bread it instantly started deflating… I dropped it and just threw it in the oven, not sure about the results yet, it doesn’t seem like it has awesome oven spring but we’ll see.What could have gone wrong?Reply
        • Trevor Wilson saysJune 2, 2016 at 5:00 PMDeflation is almost always a sign of overproofing. Basically, the dough builds up more gas than it can comfortably hold and so it deflates upon handling.There could be several reasons for overproofing: too long final proof, too warm proof, too weak dough. Or a combination. You’ll have to play around to figure out how best to adjust your method to prevent the overproofing.And to be sure your dough is on track as it proofs during the final rise, you can use the finger-poke test as a guide. While not infallible, it’s certainly a good enough place to start. Basically, just poke your finger about a half inch or so into the loaf (you may need to flour your finger if your dough is sticky). If the dough feels dense and springs back very quickly then it’s young and not yet ready to bake. If it feels airy but still strong and springs back into place (or almost back into place) slowly then that means it’s just right and ready to bake. If the dough feels weak and gassy and the indentation doesn’t spring back at all (or even deflates a bit) then that means the loaf is overproofed and should’ve been baked earlier.Other than that, learning to judge the correct degree of proof before baking is just one of those skills that takes time to learn. But bake enough loaves and you’ll start to figure out. Better luck next time!TrevorReply
14. Daniel saysJuly 20, 2016 at 3:16 PMHey Trevor, thank you very much for an inspiring blog! I just made a bread following this post and was blown away by the result! I find your discussion about dough handling in relation to increasing the hydration in order to get a more open crumb awesome! I just have one question regarding dough handling in relation to scaling up the recipie to several loafs. I guess you can then mix a dough for several loafs and then divide it, right? In that case, at what stage in the process do you divide, and how do you do this and still no degas the dough too much? Also, what is according to you the optimal weight for a batard using this recipe?Cheers!
    DanielReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJuly 21, 2016 at 3:03 PMHey Daniel, I appreciate the kind words! I’m glad that this method worked for you. To answer your question, the appropriate stage for dividing is right before prerounding. No matter how careful you are, dividing will always cause some damage and degassing — it’s an inevitability of cutting into the dough. But’s that’s just how it goes when making more than one loaf at a time. And as you can see by all the great bread produced at commercial bakeries — it’s really not a big deal so long as the dough is scaled carefully.So really the trick to scaling/dividing dough while causing the least amount of damage possible is to use the lightest touch you’re capable of, and minimize the number of cuts you make to the dough. Both of these are skills. An experienced baker can handle the dough with a lighter touch and get the weight right in the fewest cuts possible. But nobody starts off as a pro here. The more you practice, the better you’ll get.As for the optimal weight of the batard, that depends entirely on your needs and your process. Commercial bakeries might make batards scaled up to 4 pounds or so because they’ll slice the loaf then bag and sell each half as an individual sandwich loaf for deli’s and grocery stores. At home, a 4 pound loaf might be a bit much — unless you’ve got a family to feed, of course.Personally, I use the exact same weight of dough for my batards as my boules (usually). I have a 9″ oval proofing basket that’s just right for 800 grams of my typical dough. Additionally, the proofed 9″ loaf is just small enough to fit (snugly) into my combo cooker for baking. So for me, the ideal weight is usually 800 grams. I hope that helps.Cheers!TrevorReply
15. Tom P. saysAugust 1, 2016 at 12:04 PMHi TrevorAfter finding your website through a link on TFL, I first read your “philosophical” posts. If what you are looking for is large holes in your crumb because it looks cool or shows you are making progress in your breadmaking, then have at it. After following your directions I made a 65% hydration dough with crumb that was light and open. Just the right amount of holes for my taste. The best sourdough I’ve made. After all, you can’t eat a hole.The last feeding of my starter was done with a 50-50/white and whole wheat mixture giving it a darker color than the preferment and allowing me to better judge when it was fully mixed in. Using 10 grams of salt is less than the “standard” 2% but enough to season the bread. Does this lower salt content have something to do with extended preferment or is it for general health concerns?Lastly, I want to thank you for showing me this method and helping me on my journey to great bread.Oh, almost forgot. Is there a bridge from your island to the mainland or do you use a boat?Good luck,Tom P.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 2, 2016 at 8:57 AMHey Tom, I’m glad you like my site — and that you’ve found this method useful! As much as I love the visual appeal of spectacularly open crumb (and the challenge in trying to get it) this is also my generally preferred style of crumb. I just don’t find massive holes to be particularly useful under most circumstances.To answer your questions . . .Regarding the salt, by my calculations (using Baker’s Percentage) 10g is just over 2%. The recipe calls for a total of 485g flour (436g bread flour, 24g whole wheat, and 25g of all-purpose that comes from the starter). 2% of 485g works out to 9.7g salt, which I round up to 10g.And regarding the island — yes, there is a bridge. The road on the southeastern side of the island was built on a natural sandbar that connects the mainland to the island. It’s just over a mile long. It only takes a minute or so to cross.Cheers!TrevorReply
16. Deepa saysAugust 17, 2016 at 9:52 AMHello TrevorI stopped by your IG account first, came to your
    Blog here, and hooked up here for the last two days, infact all day n night!Fantastic blog, super fantastic inspirational words and crystal clear explanations!
    No words to appreciate your talent!
    May Almighty bless you!So after two days of reading n watching repeatedly your post n video tried this stiff dough bread and it came out fantastic which literally brought tears in my eyes seeing my beautiful crumb bread!Thank you so much
    RegardsDeepa PathmanathanReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 17, 2016 at 2:09 PMHi Deepa, thank you for the great compliment! I’m glad the method worked so well for you! And I’m glad that you’ve been enjoying my blog and my IG gallery! I’ve got plenty more content I intend to publish here, I just happen to be a bit slow at this stuff (IG is much easier). But more is on the way!Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Deepa Pathmanathan saysAugust 18, 2016 at 10:09 AMHi Trevor
        Looking forward to many more alongside with those highly inspirational and motivation words:)I wanted to show you the bread I baked following your instructions, so tagged you in IG, I’m sorry about that!
        But thank you so much for your kind appreciative words!Thanks a bunchRegards
        DeepaReply
        • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 18, 2016 at 8:49 PMHi Deepa, there’s nothing to be sorry about. I’m happy when folks tag me with pictures of their bread. It lets me see how they’re doing. So no worries!Reply
17. Garth Dangerfield saysAugust 19, 2016 at 1:48 PMIve been making SD Bread for a bout 2 years now and though I was getting the hang of it……untill I found your mehtod for Low Hydration Loaves !!!! Your method has blown me away …..I never though one could get such a brilliant crumb from such low hydration till I tried your method. Many thanks for sharing your unique skilss with us.PS Also love your High Hydration method… All your videos are so instructive, clear and very easy to understand.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 22, 2016 at 6:16 AMThank you Garth! I’m glad you’ve found my videos so helpful! And I’m glad the method is working for you. Open crumb really is about proper fermentation and dough handling. That’s 80% of the equation. If more bakers would just focus on developing those 2 skills they’d see a drastic improvement in the quality of their bread.Unfortunately, most folks believe that the secret to open crumb is wetter dough. Yes, wetter dough can make a more open crumb structure, but only if you have the skills to properly handle it. Most home bakers that attempt to bake with really wet dough don’t yet have the skills to handle it. And since dough handling is part of that 80% they effectively shoot themselves in the foot by making dough that will get “roughed up” due to improper handling. Flat bread is the typical result. And to add insult to injury, it’s usually not even all that open due to the rough handling. They would be better served to make stiffer dough that they are comfortable handling, and on which they can practice their skills.Anyway, I’m glad things are working out for you. Thanks for letting me know!Cheers!TrevorReply
18. mirit saysAugust 23, 2016 at 2:25 AMgreat post!!!
    if i use whole spelt only, how much hydration do you suggest please?
    thank you 🙂Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 23, 2016 at 6:53 AMThank you! I’m glad you liked it! It’s difficult to say what hydration to use if you plan on using 100% whole spelt. Different spelt flours will absorb water differently based on their protein content (the higher the protein, the higher the water absorption) and how fine the grind is (the finer the grind, the greater the water absorption). So I can’t really say for sure how much water you should be using.But one thing’s for sure, you will likely need to use more water than what this recipe calls for. Whole grain always absorbs more water than white flour, so in order to get a dough of a similar consistency you will need to increase the hydration a bit.However . . .Spelt is a funny grain. It makes for a very extensible dough that tends to get softer and softer as it proofs. So even a dough that seems too stiff at first might become very soft after a few hours bulk fermentation. For that reason, you may not need to increase the hydration as much as you might if you were trying to make it 100% whole wheat instead.So really, I think you’ll just have to experiment to find the consistency that works best for you. Keep in mind, that due to whole spelt’s extreme extensibility, it will not hold as nice a shape as a wheat-based dough. Spelt flattens out, and whole spelt flattens out significantly. For that reason, most whole-spelt breads that are baked in commercial bakeries are pan breads.And if you decide to make a pan bread (especially a whole grain pan bread), then you’re really talking about an entirely different style of bread than what this method is designed to make. There’s nothing wrong with that, of course, but this method is designed to help bakers get a nice open irregular crumb without having to rely on excessively hydrated dough that is difficult to handle. Whole grain pan breads are entirely different thing altogether. You can certainly use this method for them, but you won’t be getting the same results.Additionally, premixing high percentage whole grain breads poses a risk of unwanted enzymatic activity and spontaneous fermentation. These processes happen any time you mix flour and water, but they’re especially potent in dough that has a higher percentage of whole grain and in dough that has a higher hydration. Since your dough would be 100% whole grain, and therefore necessarily of a higher hydration, it will be at a much greater risk of excessive enzymatic activity and wild fermentation. In minor cases you might just develop some off-flavors, but in extreme cases you might end up with degraded gluten that makes for a weak and shaggy dough.So as you can see, this method isn’t really ideal for the kind of bread you would like to make. However, if you still decide that you want to use this premixing method for your 100% whole spelt bread, then I suggest leaving the premixed dough in the fridge overnight instead of setting it on the counter at room temp. This will keep those unwanted processes from getting out of hand. But you’ll have a colder stiffer dough in the morning (which makes it more difficult to mix in the starter) and your dough will get off to a slow start until it warms back up.I know that was a very long answer to a short question, but hopefully it was more helpful than confusing. Best of luck!Cheers!TrevorReply
19. Mirit saysAugust 25, 2016 at 3:42 AMDear Trevor, what a huge lesson, thanks a lot! For now had a dough with durum, Rye and bread flour, trying this method, will update today or tomorrow ?Reply
20. Mirit saysAugust 26, 2016 at 4:11 PMit tastes great and also awsome flavour thank you very much for this lovely method Trevor ?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 30, 2016 at 11:46 AMThat’s great to hear Mirit! I’m glad it came out well for you!Reply
21. Bruno saysSeptember 20, 2016 at 1:53 PMHi!First of all thank you very much for the time you put into making the lives of those who love to bake a lot easier. The videos and descriptions are amazing.I have a question…
    I read a lot about what’s behind good bread baking and one of the things that keeps getting mentioned is temperature control, specifically Final Dough Temperature. According to what i’ve been reading, something around the 26ºC and 28ºC is the ideal mark.It seems that you don’t really have this concern. Pre-mixing and putting the dough in the fridge will make the Final Dough Temperature be different from what it says in the literature, right?
    What’s your opinion about this?Cheers,BrunoReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysSeptember 24, 2016 at 6:40 PMHi Bruno, I’m glad you like my work! To answer your questions . . .Dough temp has never been a big concern of mine. But understand, that I’m in the extreme minority here. Most bakers obsess about their dough temps. It makes more sense for commercial bakers to worry about dough temps than home bakers since they often have strict production schedules they need to keep to. But even at the bakeries I worked for, I never bothered with dough temp unless it was something required by my supervisor (i.e. recorded). Let me explain why, and perhaps you’ll get a better idea of my feeling regarding dough temps . . .I’ve always been a very pattern-based thinker. I’ve never much been interested in facts and figures, just patterns and processes. That carries over into my baking philosophy as well. So my preferred method of mixing in the bakery has always been to adjust as necessary based on the patterns I witness. So if a dough is moving slowly, based on a certain set of circumstances, then next time (in similar circumstances) I’ll mix it warmer. If it’s moving too quick, then next time I’ll mix it cooler. Basically just notice the pattern and adjust as necessary.This is not a very practical method. The common ideal in a production environment is to eliminate as many human decisions (error) as possible by the creation of repeatable procedures. If performing X results in Y, then anyone should be able to do it (no matter how inexperienced) by just following the formula. And that’s how it is with baking and calculating dough temps.My method, on the other hand, relies on a huge accumulation of experience and developed intuition. As such, when I first started learning to mix in the bakery I was terrible. Seriously terrible. Other bakers who might be taking dough temps were much more consistent at first. They were following the formula. But I was all over the place and I ruined a ton of bread. Over time, however, as I accumulated more and variable experiences, I started to pick out the patterns. I started to understand the variables. I started to acquire a strong intuition based on experience.So even though I got off to a slow start, my learning curve was more exponential in nature as opposed to the linear curve of those who were going strictly by measurement and formula. And formula only works under controlled variables. Unfortunately, only big factories can control for all the variables. So when variables change, formulas fail. But since I was operating based on patterns and experience, I became much more flexible. I could adapt quickly and easily, without having to pour through the temperature logs to try and find a day with a matching air temp and flour temp and starter temp. I didn’t need to calculate out a Desired Dough Temp at all. I instinctively learned how to use water temp to accommodate for all the variables without having to resort to logs, measurements and calculations. In the baking world, flexibility is consistency. And so by freeing myself of the need to determine a dough temp, I became a much better baker than those who were still stuck in their formulas (in my own humble opinion, of course).The point of that long and drawn out history is to illustrate the reason that I don’t care too much about dough temps. At least, why I don’t care about measuring them and calculating them anyway. To me, desired dough temps are a constriction. Taking temps is inefficient — it slows the process and ruins flow. Logging temps is bureaucratic and a waste of time and energy. Setting desired dough temps creates a production line mindset chained by numbers and lacking flexibility.So that’s my philosophy as a professional in a professional environment. Trust me, this would be considered heresy by most professional bakers. But we all must do what works best for us — most work best with desired dough temps . . . I do not.Now, a home environment is something else entirely. But my philosophy is much the same. In fact, perhaps it’s even more relevant. The thing with home baking is that the baker is usually working without production schedules, and with extremely small batches of dough — one or two loaves at a time. Such small amounts of dough will typically equalize to room temp in a short amount of time. So what’s the point of aiming for a desired dough temp that’s any different from the ambient temp in which the loaf proofs?Sure, the greater the dough temp deviates from the ambient temp the longer it will take to equalize. You might be able to get a head start by mixing much warmer, or you can delay the start by mixing much colder. And that’s cool, I do that on occasion. But ultimately, unless your dough is well insulated, it will eventually approximate room temp. So to me, the most important thing for a home baker is to control the ambient temp. You can use a proof box (I use the Brod & Taylor), you can use the oven, you can use a home made contraption or just find a cold/warm place in your home. But to me, the key is to make sure your dough proofs at a room temp that will accommodate your needs and/or the characteristics you’re looking for from your bread.What’s the best temp?That’s a decision a baker can only make based on their needs and experience. I (typically) prefer the quality of dough that proofs at cooler room temps, say 70F to 75F. But I (usually) prefer the flavor of bread that proofs in the mid 80’s or so. I often proof around 78F to 82F as a compromise. But my tastes and needs change from day to day and so my proofing temps often change to reflect that.Now when mixing, I typically just measure water temperature by touch, often aiming for lukewarm to warm. Though often times in the Summer I use cold water for a bit of that delayed effect I mentioned earlier. Of course, touch is a subjective and relative thing. If I’ve been out for a walk during a cold morning then even lukewarm water might feel hot to my cold hands. But I’m okay with that. I’m aware of the limitations of my subjectivity, and I can accommodate for it (to an extent). However, this is why many bakers swear by their thermometers — because thermometers don’t lie (well, sometimes they do, but you get the idea).I don’t use thermometers. I don’t want to use thermometers. Thermometers are a limitation. They hold me back.Again, I’m speaking only for myself here. What works for me doesn’t necessarily work for others. Like I said, I’m in the extreme minority here so don’t take my word as gospel. But don’t take anyone else’s word as gospel either. Experiment with different dough temps to find out what you like, or scrap dough temps altogether and see if you prefer a thermometer-less bake instead. Do what works best for you.Oh, and as far as the premixing goes, there’s really no reason to measure dough temp since it’s going in the fridge. Ideally, you just mix with cold water so as to help it reach refrigeration temperature as quickly as possible. And since it’s taken out of the fridge and left on the counter overnight, by morning it will have come to room temp. So again, in this case it’s the ambient temps that matter, not the dough temp.I know this was an excessively long answer, but since you asked for my opinion I decided to give it to you as completely as possible. Hopefully it will at least provide a bit of perspective, and not just add to the confusion. Let me know if you’d like clarification on anything and I’ll be happy to elucidate.Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Augustin Coppey saysNovember 26, 2016 at 2:52 AMTrevor,Fascinating blog and discussion on temperature. Thank you.One thing I would like to add is that temperature does make an important (and annoying!) difference depending on where you live. I’m in south east asia where it’s typically 90F/32C during the day, sticky humid weather. This forces me either lower hydration a lot and/or or cool my dough in the fridge,
        Unfortunately for me, there doesn’t seem to be any accomplished baker who writes about his successes dealing with such conditions, so I’m left to my own trials and errors. It’s fun, but a hard way to learn!Reply
        • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 28, 2016 at 11:03 AMI hear you Augustin, hot and humid is difficult weather for baking. I’m fortunate where I live, we only really suffer hot humid weather during the short Summer. But during that time, we have to do the same as you — mix our doughs colder and stiffer. It helps in a professional environment if you have a cooler or retarder to put your bread into, but even then things can sometimes get out of control on the hottest days. Like you say, it’s just a lot of trial and error to figure it out. Best of luck!TrevorReply
22. Robert Yan saysSeptember 23, 2016 at 8:41 PMI use a procelain bowl or china bowl for doing the stretch and fold. I found that my dough sticks to the bowl quite much as compared to what I see in the video of using a stainless bowl although I mixed my dough to the exact hydration. Is there any difference of bowl materials? If there is I better get stainless bowls.
    Thanks for all your very instructive videos.
    Regards
    RobertReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysSeptember 28, 2016 at 6:02 PMHi Robert, I’ve never had problems doing this in other bowl materials. But my experience is limited to stainless steel, porcelain, and glass. So long as the material isn’t porous it should work fine. It could be a problem with technique. If you watch my videos carefully, you can see how I slide my fingers along the side of the bowl to help “peel” the dough from the sides. And of course, you need to make sure your hand is wet to prevent sticking.Also, the longer the dough rises in between folds, the more it will stick. That’s why I first scraped down the sides with a plastic dough scraper — the two hours between folds can cause a lot of sticking.But you never know, it may just be that your bowls are sticky. In that case, maybe you should try the stainless steel just to see for yourself. They’re not too expensive. Here’s a link to the set I use . . .https://www.amazon.com/ChefLand-Standard-Weight-Mixing-Stainless/dp/B00OLBR750/ref=sr_1_5?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1475100045&sr=1-5&keywords=stainless+steel+mixing+bowlsI hope that helps. Cheers!TrevorReply
23. Rebecca saysOctober 9, 2016 at 5:44 PMThanks for this tutorial. Have been trying and failing for some time. This came out great. Per my husband, “this is the best you’ve ever made.” I hear him slicing more as I type.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 15, 2016 at 2:36 PMThanks Rebecca! I’m glad to hear it!Cheers!Reply
24. Rositza Ilieva saysOctober 11, 2016 at 5:39 AMBig thank you for your clear and full explanations! I accidentally met one of your videos recently and even without full instructions these 2-3 loaves were my nearly best from all times I bake sourdough. It is not very long – about 4 years of not very often baking. And plus I made them without much weighting, just adjusting the hydration by feeling, and trying to copy your nice hand movements (I’m a dancer and for me the way of move has very good impress). The bad news are I tried afterwards to make experiments with other formulas and way of baking. The results were not good. Just once the bread was very tasty and with perfect holes, but flat. So I’m very exited I’ve found your blog. Now I’ll learn to feel the dough. And more to improve my feeling about it – wet or not. Today I mixed some white (here it is about 9% protein), Graham (11%), and some durum (12%) It is 45/30/25 percent white/graham/durum. Still learning to feel the water ( added some beer, as not to toss it). Is this the way I should adjust my protein level? I’m afraid from the moment I found how weak is the white flour here I feel somehow lost. So far I mixed it, kneading in 10-15 min intervals gently 4-5 times. The durum adds much heaviness and I don’t want to overdo it. The liquid is over 72%, but feels nice, like moderately stiff dough. My question is mostly about mixing the flours and why. And what particularly advantage could be adding durum?
    And I’ll let you know how it turned out.Reply
    • Rositza Ilieva saysOctober 11, 2016 at 5:28 PMWell – better love next time, as I know from an old song. But I’ll be back 🙂Reply
      • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 15, 2016 at 2:52 PMCome on back anytime Rositza!Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 15, 2016 at 2:48 PMThanks for the kind words Rositza! To answer your questions . . .Protein content isn’t everything. As an indicator of dough strength, it only really matters if it’s a white flour. Whole grain flours such as Graham flour, and other wheat’s such as durum may have a higher protein content, but not necessarily a better protein quality. At least, not when it comes to forming nice gluten. Both Graham flour and durum flour will make for a denser bread.Now, since your white flour is only 9% protein that does mean that you’ll have to learn to adapt to weaker doughs (unless you can find some stronger flour). Typically, the weaker the flour the less water it can hold. So you may need to work with stiffer dough if you want loaves that stand tall instead of flattening out. That said, there’s no reason you can’t get nice light and airy bread with the flour you have. It’ll just take some practice.So with all that considered, remember that flavor is really what matters most. The advantage of adding durum (or Graham) is the flavor it contributes (if you like the flavor, that is). So if you enjoy the taste of the bread you make with these flours then by all means continue to use them. The more you bake with these flours, the better you’ll get at maximizing the rise and openess. Good luck!Reply
      • Rositza Ilieva saysOctober 17, 2016 at 5:52 AMThank you very much Trevor!Your answer is very helpful, especially the part of mixing flours. This is my non understandable point. So speaking of flavor I begin to understand a bit. But I’m always curios about the magic of bread happening.
        Yes, it was denser, but yes, it was with good flavor. So I’ll move step by step with little adjustments here and there, to feel better my dough. The second try of this method was much more successful, I’d say I’m happy with the result. But I’ve changed the flour and removed the durum. I’m trying to achieve more open and more evenly opened crumbs, but the flavor and taste is nice, could be better though.
        And, thanks to you, I have more fun with the process!Thanks, thanks, thanks!!Reply
        • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 17, 2016 at 12:27 PMYou’re very welcome Rositza! It sounds like you’ve got the right idea on how to proceed from here on out. So keep on having fun and best of luck!Reply
          • Rositza Ilieva saysJanuary 30, 2017 at 3:46 AMHi Trevor, continue this thread just to say I have great improvement with my breads!!! They became with even open crumb and it happens all the time. So I decide to share my way. On the first day in the afternoon I mix my starter with some flour and water – about 1/3 of the recipe – it is about 70% hydration, the starter is 70% too. In the morning I do about 30-40 minutes autolyse to the rest of the flour and water. Then combine all ingredients, adding the salt, kneading just enough to make the dough. All is about 70 to 72% hydration. Then I do S&F for 1 hour intervals ( or do not, it depends on my free time). This gives me so HUGE improvement in terms of gluten developing, I can’t believe! The flours are the same low percent of protein, but the dough is very well developed, keeps its size and has very good oven spring. Thank you for inspiring me to find my way and keep trying to improve!Reply
25. Duane Doutel saysOctober 14, 2016 at 1:28 AMTrevor, I’d like to express my sincere thanks for this and other posts on your site. I’m entirely new to baking, having been at it for only a couple of months. Following along with this post and watching your excellent video, I managed to achieve the best loaf of sourdough bread I’ve baked to date. The lessons I learned from you are invaluable. It seems that I started out baking with all the wrong advice; had I found your site sooner, I’d have avoided some of my earlier, more discouraging failures.Again, many thanks for sharing your hard-won knowledge and experience!Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 15, 2016 at 2:59 PMThank you very much Duane! I appreciate it! I’m always happy to share what I’ve learned. Experience is the best teacher, and if you can learn from someone else’s experience then that much better — it just saves you time and energy. So keep at it and your bread will continue to get better and better with each bake. Best of luck!Cheers!TrevorReply
26. Josh saysOctober 24, 2016 at 12:03 AMTrevor –I have been trying for years to get a nice open crumb sourdough loaf…I would try and try, give up and try again. Now, just off my most recent sourdough sabbatical, I gave your recipe and method a shot, followed them as best I could.This is, by far the single best loaf of sourdough I have ever made, simply beautiful: open crumb, chewy, al dente texture, the crust is also excellent: chewy, toasted, caramel… fantastic.I know it isn’t perfect, I need some better tools and practice, but finally, I know I can do it…there may be no break between loaves any more. This is the basic recipe/method that works and I can experiment with.All I can say is, thank you, thank you very much.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 1, 2016 at 8:54 PMThat’s great to hear Josh! I’m glad the method worked so well for you! Open crumb is 80% proper fermentation and dough handling. By focusing on those two main areas, and with a bit of practice, your crumb will only continue to get better and better. Keep up the good work!Cheers!TrevorReply
27. Mordy saysOctober 24, 2016 at 3:00 PMI followed the steps for getting open Crum loaf. In the first try the dough was very sticky, I checked the flour and found out that it had 10% protein, so I reduced amount of water for 63% hydrogen dough. It was much better, yet not as the one in the video. Anyway the result was amazing, my best loaf I ever baked, and I really want to give you great thanks for this wonderful blog.
    I have some questions –
    1. The loaf was heavy compared to bakery same size loaf. Any idea how to make lighter loaf?
    2. What about rolls? What is your suggestion to open crumb rolls?
    3. Can I adapt this technic for any recipie? I mean to make a dough without the starter and then adding it?
    Thanks in advance
    Mordy.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 1, 2016 at 9:39 PMThanks Mordy! I’m glad the method is helping out a bit! To answer your questions . . .1) Heavy loaves are usually a result of underfermentation (underproofing). If your loaf was kind of flat with a few big holes (or tunnels) surrounded by tight and maybe gummy dough then that typically means your dough was underproofed during the bulk fermentation. If your dough instead had a fairly even crumb, but was just tight throughout then it may have been underproofed during the final proof.If you have a healthy and active starter, then underproofed dough can be fixed simply by proofing it longer and/or warmer. But often times, underproofed dough is a result of an inactive and/or unhealthy starter. If that’s the case, then the key is getting your starter to a vigorous state. Is your starter cohesive and spongy? Or is it more the consistency of runny glue? Runny glue is a sign of an acidic and proteolytic starter.If that’s the case, then you may need to give it a massive discard — a feeding ratio somewhere along the lines of 1:5:5 (one part old starter, 5 parts water, 5 parts flour; all by weight). That should remove the acid load. Then a few days of feeding at 1:2:2 twice a day approximately 12 hours a part (all at room temp) should get the activity back up. Once your starter can reliably double (or better yet, triple) in volume within 8 hours of refreshment then you’re good to go.2) Open crumb is 80% proper fermentation and dough handling. That applies to rolls as well. Of course, the smaller the roll the less crumb there will be — and therefore the less room for openness. Typical dinner rolls don’t really have enough crumb to develop a great open texture. Ciabatta rolls, made with a wet dough, are probably your best bet here.That said, so long as you nail the fermentation and dough handling, even small dinner rolls should be light and airy. They may not have huge holes, but that’s for the best. A roll that’s mostly hole is a poor roll. So long as your rolls are light and airy then you’ve succeeded.3) You can try, but probably not. Things get complicated if your recipe calls for additional ingredients (especially if it’s an enriched dough with fat such as milk that can go rancid overnight). It’s best suited to stiffer lean dough made of just flour, water and salt — though you can certainly make it work with a few additional ingredients if you play around.Also, you have to be careful using this method with wet dough or high percentage whole grain dough. High hydration and high whole grain doughs are both more enzymatically active. If you’re not careful, you can end up with runaway enzymatic activity. At best that might just mean you have a few off-flavors, at worst you’ll end up with a loose, shaggy and weak dough. It’s not that you can’t use it for these kinds of breads, it’s just that you’re taking a greater risk if you do so. A solution is to keep the premixed dough in the fridge for the entire night. You’ll end up with a cold stiff dough in the morning, and that will make it more difficult to mix in the starter. Plus the dough will get off to a very slow start and therefore take significantly longer to proof. But it will virtually eliminate the chance of runaway enzymatic activity.I hope that helps. Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Mordy saysNovember 3, 2016 at 3:54 PMThank you very much for your reply.
        BR
        MordyReply
        • Mordy saysNovember 4, 2016 at 6:56 AMHi,
          I checked my Sourdough, I think that it looks OK. When I activated it, it doubled after 6 hours, but I used it only after 12 hours… I need an assistant that will handle it when I am at work..
          Anyway, I sliced my bread, and compared the slice to similar slice of bakery bread. Slices are in the same size, holes are very similar in size and number but.. The weight of my slice is about 36 grams while the weight of the bakery slice is about 28 grams. The interior of bakery bread slice is much softer/tender I can stretch it quite long till it tears down, unlike my bread which its interior is tougher and tears down quite easily. This actually leads me to another question – after getting great holes just like in the bakery, how can I achieve the soft structure? This questions holds also for simple bread based on yeast.
          MordyReply
          • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 6, 2016 at 5:30 PMHey Mordy, is the bakery bread that you’re comparing your loaf to a “lean” dough like this one is? If the bakery bread includes fat and/or sugar then it will be much softer than lean dough such as this.Also, hydration plays a big role in how soft the final texture of the crumb is. This is a low hydration recipe, and as such the crumb will be dryer than a similar but higher hydration bread will be. High hydration breads are noted for their moist “custardy” soft crumb.If the bread you are comparing yours to is a lean dough of similar hydration, then the difference in weight is likely due to proofing. The further you proof your bread (assuming you don’t overproof it), the lighter and softer the texture will be. Well proofed bread is airier and fluffier than underproofed bread is.Without any additional info that’s really just my best guess. If you like, you can attach a photo of your crumb and I’d be happy to take a look and see if I can give you a bit more info and a better plan of action.Cheers!TrevorReply
28. Justin saysOctober 29, 2016 at 7:24 AMHey Trevor,
    What’s your take on fridge proofing? Maybe my issue has been poor dough handling all along or something else I’m not sure. But I seem to go from an awesomely bulk proofed dough to a weebly mass of sad looking dough after an overnight in the fridge.Perhaps the chill is killing the bacteria?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 1, 2016 at 10:20 PMHey Justin, proofing in the fridge should be just fine . . . so long as you find a routine that works well for you. I don’t often retard my loaves in the fridge, but when I do I find that I have to be a bit more on my toes. Sometimes a dough in the fridge won’t budge at all even after 24 hours, whereas sometimes it might overproof in under 12. The variables are so many here that it often comes down more to experience and intuition rather than rigid timelines.It sounds like you’re bulk proofing at room temperature then tossing the shaped loaves in the fridge. Is that correct? And what exactly is happening to your loaves? A “weebly mass” could be from overproofing. Do your loaves seem overly delicate and tend to deflate when you turn them out and score them? Or do they just spread wide (but with no deflation)?Delicate loaves that deflate are overproofed. You may need to reduce their proof time. Loaves that just spread (and feel dense) are usually underproofed at the bulk stage. Since you said you’re getting an awesome bulk fermentation this probably isn’t the issue. But if it is, then you need a longer and/or warmer bulk, or you need to improve the health and activity of your starter.I’m not exactly sure I answered your question here, so if you’d like further clarification I’ll be happy to elaborate.Cheers!TrevorReply
29. Michael saysNovember 14, 2016 at 6:39 AMHi Trevor,Follow you on Instagram and found my way to this site.Baked after this recipe yesterday and ended up with the best/softest crumb ever… Thanks ! 🙂So far I have been following recipes with +80 hydration, ending up with a good looking bread with an open crumb, but lacking softness. I could get the big airbubbles, but the crumb allway felt wet and heavy, despite 45 minutes in the oven.Looking forward to work with the low hydration dough and refining my stretching techniques and focus on getting the proofing right.ThanksReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 16, 2016 at 7:03 PMI’m glad to hear that Michael! The thing with stiffer dough, that seems to have been lost in the rush to higher hydration breads, is that there is a higher ratio of starch in every bite. Higher starch breads are often noticeably more tender. Now, a high hydration bread can certainly make a tender custardy crumb, but it’s not quite the same. Lower hydration breads tend to be “fluffier”, more like cotton candy rather than custard. Custardy breads can be nice on occasion, but overall I prefer the more traditional fluffier texture of lower hydration breads. They make better toast and sandwiches, in my opinion.Anyway, glad to hear you’re starting to get the results you’ve been looking for. Keep up the good work!Cheers!Reply
30. Calla saysNovember 16, 2016 at 5:59 PMHi,Just want to say big thank-you for this post and the website. This stiff-dough for open-crumb is a revelation to me and it does work brilliantly as you said. My bread has since improved so much with the dough handling technique you demonstrated throughout the videos. I am nowhere nearly as skilled as you but I will keep on working on my kneading technique.Thank you for sharing the knowledge.Reply
31. Phyllis saysNovember 18, 2016 at 8:17 PMAnd another highly successful loaf using this technique. The oven spring was startling. I had to hold myself back in the middle of the night and not come downstairs and tear into it. Do you think the lucky friend who was the recipient would have noticed?
    My first try eas using the “Rubaud Method” and that was equally wonderful.
    That recipe includes 16% of flours other than white flour.
    Do you think I could successfully add rye and spelt to this recipe and if so should it be about 5.5 %
    Thanks for your help.Reply
32. Poul Stark saysNovember 19, 2016 at 1:30 AMHi Trevor,Thanks for this post, and all the photos you post on Instagram as well.
    I opted for this approach since I’ve had no success following e.g. the Tartine approaches. No matter what I’ve done, I’ve always ended up with a wet, sticky and weak dough. I’ve always blamed it on hydration and the “fact” that European flours hold less water. I thought this approach would give me a little success in sourdough bread baking, but it has not. Looking at the video, my dough looked just like your until the first fold, it also felt “right”. As the folds increased the dough just got more sticky. I’ve read about starters breaking down the gluten, because they are to acidic. Do you think this could be what happens to my dough? I’m confident in handling 70+ hydration (yeasted) doughs for pizza making, but this one was impossible to shape.Reply
33. Paul saysNovember 21, 2016 at 11:49 PMWow! I did an internet search yesterday for tips to making a more open crumb. I’ve been baking with a recipe very similar to this but I followed Trevor’s recipe and method precisely and made my best sourdough boule ever. The oven spring was incredible and the crumb was more open than in his video…probably because I goofed a little and added a little more water when measuring. I started another two loaves for tomorrow to hopefully duplicate my success. Thank you so much for sharing.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 28, 2016 at 10:57 AMThat’s great to hear Paul! I’m glad the method’s working out for you! And the more you bake, the better and better your bread will become. Keep up the good work! Cheers!TrevorReply
34. Mordy saysDecember 5, 2016 at 4:05 PMHi Trevor,
    Last time I baked according to this recipe, the dough hardly proofed. Between folds it didn’t proof at all, while in last proof it took about 8 hours and didn’t doubl, also didn’t get any oven spring. There is one thing that I did differently – I mixed the dough, put it in the refrigerator for 7 hours and the took it out for 12 hours. May this be the reason?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 6, 2016 at 8:30 PMHey Mordy, was your starter active and healthy? A vigorous starter should at least double in volume within 8 hours of refreshment (tripling in volume is even better). If your starter wasn’t active enough then your dough will rise very sluggishly, if it rises at all. Now, if your starter was active . . .Did you place the dough directly in the fridge after the final mixing (after the starter was added)? Seven hours in the fridge won’t hurt the dough at the premix stage, but if you add the starter then put it directly in the fridge then that could cause the problem. Without a bit of time for the starter to “get going” the cold of the fridge can basically put the brakes on any fermentation. Combine that with a weak starter and it could definitely halt pretty much all fermentation going forward.Without any additional info, those are really my best guesses.TrevorReply
      • Mordy saysDecember 7, 2016 at 1:37 AMThank you very much.
        I am going to try today.. I can add the starter at night but will be able to bake it only the day after, how do you suggest to proof it? May I put it at room temp for couple of hours, and then to the refrigerator?Reply
        • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 9, 2016 at 7:34 PMHey Mordy, that’s a tricky question to answer. The truth is that if you add the starter the day before you bake then you run the risk of losing control of the fermentation. That’s why most bakers refrigerate after shaping, rather than during the bulk fermentation. This becomes especially true if you plan to let the dough bulk ferment overnight at room temps (even after a brief period of refrigeration prior to the overnight bulk at room temp).It’s not that you can’t do it. You certainly can. I’ve done it many many times. And there are plenty of bakers who operate this way. It’s just that it’s more difficult. Much more difficult. The bulk fermentation is extraordinarily important to the final quality of the loaf, and if you let it go unchecked while you sleep — whether in the fridge or on the counter — you’re drastically increasing the risk that something will go wrong.So my advice is this: it’s important that we all bake bread on a schedule that works for us. But if you wish to add the starter the night before, then just understand that you may have a much longer learning curve before you figure out how to do so in a way that works well for you. Nothing wrong with that, but it does usually mean a lot more flat or otherwise ruined loaves during the learning phase.But hey . . . that’s usually the best way to learn.I’ve ruined thousands of loaves in my day. That is no exaggeration. I’ve ruined loaves due to ignorance, arrogance and complacency. I’ve ruined loaves out of curiosity, and I’ve ruined them out of spite. I’ve even ruined loaves out of infatuation (trust me, no employer will ever accept as a valid excuse that you burned hundreds of loaves because you were too caught up in conversation with the cute new pastry girl, but I’ve done it all the same). Every failure is a step forward. Every failure is progress.So, in your quest to make great bread on a schedule that works for you, just be aware that you may ruin many loaves. And that’s okay. Each ruined loaf is a step closer to your perfect loaf. I wish you the best!Reply
          • Mordy saysDecember 12, 2016 at 5:58 AMThank you very much for the detailed answer. I can change my schedule to add the starter and shape the loaf before night, it raises 2 questions
            1. How do I know that Fermentation is completed? In your video, I see that dough proofs between folds while in my case it doesn’t. Should I just wait till it double in size?
            2. Assuming it is shaped at night, should I put it in refrigerator for couple of hours and then at room temperature? Or vice versa?Reply
            • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 14, 2016 at 12:01 PMHey Mordy, to answer your questions . . .1) Knowing when the bulk fermentation is complete is really a subjective matter. And it can vary from day to day and bake to bake. But a general guideline is that it should rise at least 30% in volume (though a 50% rise might be better in many cases). It doesn’t need to double, and for many styles of bread letting it double during the bulk fermentation is actually proofing it too far. A 30% to 50% rise should do just fine.But the fact that your dough doesn’t seem to rise between folds at all is something to be concerned about. It means that you’re not getting an active fermentation. Dough that doesn’t rise much during the bulk stage will tend to flatten out as it proofs because it lacks internal structure. This leads to loaves that are limp and flat, and that often have a tight, dense and gummy crumb (with maybe just a few big holes here and there).Most often, dough that doesn’t rise much during the bulk stage is dough that was made with an inactive and/or unhealthy starter. This is a very common problem, especially among newer sourdough bakers. A vigorous starter should be able to at least double in volume within 8 hours of refreshment (tripling in volume is better). If your starter can’t rise that quickly, then you need to adjust your maintenance routine to get it nice and active. Without a strong starter, it’s near impossible to get the kind of results that you see here or in artisan bakeries.
              Starter health is key.2. If you plan to bake the shaped loaf the next day, you’ll want to keep it in the fridge overnight. Some bakers put it in the fridge immediately after shaping, others let it sit out for an hour or two before refrigerating. It all depends on each baker’s personal circumstances. There are too many variables at play to give a proper recommendation — the only way to find out what works best for you is through trial and error.I personally like to leave my loaf on the counter for at least a couple hours if I can. But it depends on how quick the loaf is rising, how warm the dough is, how full my refrigerator is (the fuller the fridge, the longer it’ll take to cool your loaf), how stiff or soft the dough is, etc. Like I said, many many variables. Sometimes I just need to toss it into the fridge right away, while other times I can let it proof almost completely before refrigerating. It’s really just something that takes a bit of time to figure out. Good luck!TrevorReply
35. Shelley saysDecember 30, 2016 at 4:20 PMHow you keep your mixing bowls so clean while mixing dough?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 3, 2017 at 8:57 AMHi Shelley, I don’t know what kind of bowl you’re using so the material might have something to do with it. But more likely, it’s a combination of dough development and handling skills. A well developed dough becomes very smooth and cohesive. So dough that falls apart and sticks to everything is a sign that it wasn’t developed enough.Additionally, the more experienced your hands are at handling dough the less it will stick. I’ve been doing this for a very long time so I have considerable skill when it comes to dough handling. If you combine under-developed dough with inexperienced hands then that usually makes for quite the mess. Keep in mind though, this is really just my best guess. Without being there to see things for myself I can really only speculate. Cheers!TrevorReply
36. Parpy saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 7:41 AMHi TrevorGreat stuffs you have here… How you can help me, my room temperature is about 27 degrees C, what would your advise be on the folding interval and bulk fermentation time?Thank youReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 2:20 PMHey Parpy, that’s a great room temperature for your dough. The thing to be aware of though, is that any recommended proofing times or folding times are really just a guideline. Every dough is different, every starter is different. And what works one day may not be right for the next. So I can’t really prescribe a correct regimen for you here. You’ll really just have to experiment to find out what works best for you. When it comes to successful bread baking, trial and error is a necessity.That said, a good starting point is simply to follow the method as recommended here. Then, depending upon your results, adjust as necessary. The more you bake, the better your “feel” will become. Over time, you’ll find that your hands and your intuition will guide you much more accurately than any recipe instructions can. Cheers!TrevorReply
37. Neal Pressley saysJanuary 25, 2017 at 2:35 PMHaving a difficult time with this. So much time in between all the steps! I wish you would show putting loaf in banneton. Do you cover it? If so, with what? Also mentioning temperature throughout would be helpful as that can really vary the amount of time. From start to finish seems like almost 24 hours!! I also don’t mean to be critical but just a basic list of the steps without all of the comments and reasons would be helpful. I’ve watched the video several times then look at the list at bottom and get lost in all of the ‘discussion’. I need something clear in my mind before I can do it. Thanks. BTW, the flour I am using is organic ultimate performer from Giusto’s in San Francisco. I live in PA but ordered it; $11 for 5 lbs. and $22 for shipping!! (just as an experiment)After the 6 hour proof the ball was so sticky I had to add just a bit of flour so I could handle and shape it. Things seem ok but right now I am about to put it into the banneton for 3-4 hours, then hopefully bake by the evening! I’ll post later if I still have my sanity!:~)A frustrated sd baker!
    NealReply
38. Maria saysJanuary 27, 2017 at 8:43 AMSo glad I found this blog!!!! Well done from Greece!!! One question though… When do I make my starter? Keep up the good work!!! It’s obvious how much you love it!!!Reply
39. Dave saysFebruary 3, 2017 at 2:12 PMWhat would happen if you made the dough really cold, say 12 degrees, then left for 4 hrs to ferment at ambient room temp, shaped, proved, baked, would I get the same open crumb and flavour, without all this “refrigerate overnight” baloneyReply
40. Livia P. saysFebruary 3, 2017 at 6:16 PMHi Trevor,I did use your method with quite some success. I do get a pretty open crumb, although not quite as nice as yours. I think the overnight rest also makes the bread much easier to digest. A German scientist, W.G. Kolath, considered the pioneer of whole foods, actually showed that even raw wheat is made bio-available by overnight soaking. I have one question for you though, could help all of us as a guideline to start with: what was/is your proofing temperature for this 6-hr bulk fermentation. I read some of your replies above, where you say things will be different each time. However, I do think a rough guideline will help as our kitchen temperatures can vary over such a wide range. Thanks for your help and the great website!Reply
41. Ramsses saysFebruary 16, 2017 at 5:07 AMTrevor,Your videos and technique are hands down the best I’ve seen so far. You not only provide thorough information but also honest and organic way explaining the bread making process. By far the best website on home bread making without worrying about FDT and other technical aspects of baking. Also, your the first baker that I’ve seen on youtube that provides techniques to mixing and handling wet dough, just awesome!Can you perhaps provide a typical time schedule from start to the time you bake your bread?Excellent website!Reply
42. Carol Mahon saysFebruary 19, 2017 at 10:58 PMThank you for the reassurance that experience is going to make things better. Baking seems so simple to those who have never baked more than the occasional cakes, cookies, quick breads, etc. I wasn’t prepared for the challenges of sourdough baking. I am not good at pies. Have been rocking some sourdough cookies that I make with discard sourdough starter, oatmeal and Craisens. Way addictive! I would be more frustrated at the extended learning curve I am experiencing, if it weren’t for the sharing of your experiences. Also, thank you for emphasizing how there is no hard and fast rule and that every baking session is unique.Reply
43. Harris saysFebruary 24, 2017 at 5:05 AMHi Trevor,
    your blog was very helpful in many aspect for me to start making good bread.
    I have tried many times making big holes, and sometimes I have managed to do so, but generally with not much of a success.I was curious to know when do these holes appear in the dough? And to be clear, I know that during bulk fermentation gas is produced and is kept inside the dough. But with 4 or more S&F doesn’t the dough degas a little bit? And the again when you transfer the dough from the bowl to the bench to shape, or event when shaping, doesn’t the dough get degassed?
    I know it depends on how gently you handle the dough, but big holes do occupy a lot of space in the dough, and seems to me easy to degas.
    So I though maybe huge holes shape (and extend) on proofing. Is this correct? Should there be extra care in handling when you put a shaped loaf in a banneton, or when you transfer from banneton to the oven?Thanks a lotReply
44. lucio saysMarch 3, 2017 at 10:02 AMHi Trevor, it’ a very nice bread & crumb as many others at Breadwerx! Look, May I try yours open crumb method with a biga / poolish pre-ferment instead a levain / sourdough (I don’t have one yet)? Can you help me with more tips in this way or just follow your step-by-step tutorial. Thank you to share your recipes and knowledge with us!Reply
45. Jerry saysApril 2, 2017 at 2:37 AMHey Trevor,
    Everything I know about making bread has come from your videos and your writings. My consistent loaves lie somewhere between the Champlain and the stiffer dough formula. I want to make a black olive loaf and have been reviewing Matt Ormsbee’s instructions but he mixes the leaven in the autolyse. Could I just continue using your method and add the olive mixture at the first fold? What is the point of adding the leaven in the autolyse?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysApril 9, 2017 at 8:31 PMHey Jerry, Matt’s method is actually pretty common. Many bakers will include the starter with the autolyse (in fact, I do as well sometimes). For professionals, it’s often just a matter of convenience. But also, if the starter contains a large portion of the water in the dough (such as 100% hydration starters often do) then the dough may be a bit too stiff to get a good autolyse effect without including the starter and its water.I often use a much smaller amount of starter than most bakers, so this doesn’t usually cause any problems for me — even when I use a liquid starter. Technically, if the starter is added during the autolyse then it’s not a true autolyse (some may disagree here). The starter brings acid to the mix, and a concentration of active yeast/bacteria. Acid tightens gluten, and active microorganisms create enzymes and digest sugars and proteins. This has an effect on the dough as it rests. Now, whether that effect is so noticeable that it actually counts for something is a matter of opinion (or experimentation on your part). Many bakers will say that it doesn’t have a noticeable effect. I disagree. But again, it’s a matter of opinion. And besides, this method isn’t a true autolyse either since I include the salt.That’s not to say that I’m against including the starter. It’s really just a matter of what works best for you. Sometimes including the starter with the autolyse works best for me, sometimes it doesn’t. My methods often change with circumstance or whim. That’s just the nature of baking . . . as I pursue it.You can absolutely follow the method here and just include the olives in with the first fold. I don’t see why that wouldn’t work. And if it seems the dough is too stiff to evenly distribute the olives, you could just add them in when you mix in the starter. Experiment and find what works best for you.As an FYI, if you decide to include olives in with my formulas, you’ll probably need to reduce the salt a bit in order to compensate for the salt in the olives. Again, experimentation and taste will lead you the way.I should also add, that if you like Matt’s results (and I do) then perhaps you should just give his method a try, as is. Matt makes fantastic bread — I’ve tried it myself, and it’s wonderful. Each baker’s bread is a result of their hands, their heart and their gut. But their method is the glue that binds the three together. The best way to form your own style is to first try many other styles. Eventually, you’ll take what you like and discard that which you don’t. So if you know his recipe and his method, why not just try it and see what you get? That’s what I’d do.Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Jerry blasi saysApril 16, 2017 at 10:01 PMThanks Trevor,
        I’ve done two olive bread bakes using both methods and both came out tasting great.
        I’ve been baking three breads a day, eating one and giving two away. I am amazed at how far reaching your decision to share/teach this essential craft is……I feel as though that through you we are changing people and their appreciation for great food. Every recipient of the bread is left speechless at the incredible flavour and texture of this style of bread…..and I live in an area where Italian bakeries are abundant. I will soon try baking in the clay outdoor wood burning oven that I built in the summer and will be able to bake 5 or 6 at a time…..looking forward to the new challenge.
        Thanks again and I hope that are you able to continue sharing.Reply
46. Cindy saysApril 8, 2017 at 11:50 PMOMG I didn’t realize all the answers to my questions about the problems I’ve been having are in this comment section. Thank you so much. I bake your 50-50 bread on your schedule and it was awesome. But now using your answers to people’s questions in this comment section I think I can make bread on my own schedule. I’m never home and awake for more than 3 hours at a time, but I think I can figure it out now.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysApril 9, 2017 at 6:44 PMThat’s great Cindy! The ultimate goal should always be to adapt the knowledge and insight you gain into something that works for you. Of course, in the beginning we must always mimic — we have no choice. But, with a bit of time and experience under our belts, we should branch out and do our own thing. So I think you’ve got the right idea.Cheers!TrevprReply
47. Livia P. saysMay 18, 2017 at 10:13 AMHi again Trevor,While I have no more problem getting the open crumb with your method, I need some help with another issue. I don’t seem to be able to make this bread sour enough for my taste. I do give away quite a few loaves, and my friends seem to absolutely love it. But I’d like it more sour, and I can’t get it there. I tried using a stiffer starter made with rye to no avail. I also live above 7000 feet elevation, and can’t extend my bulk fermentation too much because the dough rises fast here. Because of our philosophy of handling it gently I’m afraid of punching it down and make it rise again. If you have any advice on how to make this more sour, please help! I can get more sourness when I use a sponge, but I seem to lose some of the airy crumb I so much appreciate. How can I achieve a more tangy taste keeping with your methods? Any advice will be greatly appreciated!Reply
    • Ima saysOctober 11, 2017 at 4:33 AMHi, you can try the final proof in the fridge and use a more mature starter ( that has peaked but not yet collapse). I live in a hot place ( 76F – 95) all year round. I have the opposite issue of having too sour bread. I learned to do the opposite of what I’m asking you to try to get a good result without the tang. My son loves crusty & chewy bread but don’t care for sour taste.Reply
    • hester saysOctober 25, 2017 at 11:08 AMDo longer fermentation in the cold (fridge). I’m going to try his method tomorrow for bake in 2 days…. with refrigeration of initial dough over night, also making mature levain beginning the day before… That way when I add the levain (starter) it will have been working for a full day. Then I’ll do stretch and folds and refrigerate AGAIN the final formed loaves. Baking on day 3.Good luckReply
48. Harley saysJune 7, 2017 at 2:11 AMThanks for the detailed instructions Trevor. I get better results when I don’t try to rush the bulk fermentation process. My mixture lacked structure after 3 turns so to I increased the number of turns to 5 and the results were excellent, as you can see:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cGyLTW6dz8a6o_oPGyCod0pCmB76VaZXug/view?usp=sharingReply
49. Steve LaBonte saysJune 11, 2017 at 1:51 PMTrevor,
    What are your recommendations to achieve the best flavor?
    Increase the bulk rise temperature from 75 to 85 degrees?
    Retard after shaping in fridge for 8-16 hours prior to baking?
    Any and all guidance is appreciated.Reply
50. Joy Roxborough saysJune 11, 2017 at 6:57 PMHi TrevorI noticed you advised someone a while back that this pre dough method was not really designed for 100% whole-wheat spelt loaves. I like using whole-wheat spelt. What methods would you suggest for getting the best loaves (in terms of crumb, flavour, structure etc) when doing 100% wholemeal spelt loaves?ThanksJoyReply
51. Michele saysJune 26, 2017 at 4:02 PMHello,
    very astonishing bread, pictures, explainations and videos. I can recognize your passion for bread and not only for that..
    I tried to do bread myself making a lot and same mistakes for long. Now it is getting better. At present I’d like to ask you a few questions: 1) is there a reason why you use “rice” flour in the linen-basket? I often let rest the bread on the baking tray and then get it in the oven; 2) last time I put the dough in a small curved iron pan (with “polenta”), let it rise, and put it in the oven; what do you think? Better using the linen-basket? 3) Better pre-heat the baking tray/iron pan? 4) I tried to mix flour, water and salt and let it rest for hours; time to time I made some folds; after about 6 hours I put onto the dough the starter, knead it, and again a few fold time to time. Does it make sense for you folding the dough “before” adding the starter? Is it useful, not useful or harmless?Thanks a lot for your help.Reply
52. Marije Pelgrum-Berghuis saysJuly 7, 2017 at 11:59 AMI just bumped into your video tru a FB-post in Perfect Sourdough.Love the video and all you explain… Makes a lot of sense to me. How much TLC you put in a bread, it is beyond expectation. Your spouse must be lucky in many ways 😉Can’t wait to try your method. Just received flour from a Dutch mill and tomorrow will be ready to bake.We are lucky to find such happiness in the art of sourdough breadmaking.All the best from sunny Amsterdam, Marije
    http://www.marijebaktbrood.nlReply
53. Stacy Bower saysJuly 12, 2017 at 11:18 AMYour recipe and method are an answered prayer. I’ve been fiddling around with sourdough for a little while now and searching for a recipe I can use to increase skill and produce a manageable quantity of delicious bread. All with less than satisfactory results. This accomplishes it all. My very first loaf was a thing of beauty and I look forward to making, sharing, and enjoying many more. Thank you for sharing your skills.Reply
54. Talia saysJuly 30, 2017 at 3:06 PMGreatb video and even better instuctions – so glad to have come accross your blog. One quesion though :
    I work exclusively with whole flours – spelt or rye and would love to get your take on getting a nice open crust like that with a loaf made of 100% whole spelt or a combi 75%whole spelt/25% whole rye….any tips?
    Also, since I bake a rather large amount – something like 80 loafs at a time – is there a shortcut you can think of to the proofing time?Reply
55. Haster saysAugust 3, 2017 at 11:13 AMTrevor:I have learned so much from your videos. Thank you!Quick question, could I retard this dough a second time after shaping – and then put it in the fridge over night before baking?Reply
56. Fabio Fiorentino saysAugust 5, 2017 at 8:14 AMHi Travor,You are a really MasterBread. May the bread be with you.
    I would like to know the W strengh of the flour used in this recipe.
    Or at least they %protein value.
    When you put it in the oven, do you use Up-Down static warming method? Any Grill feature of the oven? Do you set the bread in the middle part of the oven or in the bottom part .Thanks and regardsFabio FiorentinoReply
57. giyad saysAugust 16, 2017 at 8:07 PMUmmmm, you added starter though which, does increase the hydration. No? So you may have started with 65%, but you ended with something more based on your starter. I do agree that handling is very important, if not more than hydration to an extent.Reply
    • hester saysOctober 25, 2017 at 11:03 AMActually the final percentage is 64.9%. In the final dough after adding the starter he has 485 gm of flour and 315 gm of water. If you divide 315 by 485 you get .6494….%Reply
58. Ima saysOctober 11, 2017 at 3:58 AMHi, I want to thank you again for the detailed description along with the video instruction. They help me a great deal to bake better bread. My question is if I were to bake this loaf in a 9″x5″, would I still get the nice open crumb?Thanks again,Reply
59. Cynthia saysOctober 12, 2017 at 12:23 PMHi Trevor–trying this for the first time. How sticky should the initial dough be before the hydrating time? The dough was very sticky in the unevenly incorporated stage, and it took more handling to get it evenly hydrated but still shaggy. Then by that point it had a little elasticity–sprang back some when touched–did I overwork it? It never got as smooth as yours looked in the video by the point some elasticity developed.Also tried your moves–I wonder if my hands are too small to do the thumb folding thing compared to yours or if the stickiness of the dough made it hard to manage.Using whole wheat flour from bulk bins at co-op–probably Champlain Valley. Has lots of bran. Do you extract your bran first? I didn’t.For bread flour, using Bob’s Red Mill Artisan.I think I got 2-3 grams too much water in the mix. But no more than that if my scale’s to be trusted.And at what point in this process would you refresh your refrigerated starter–mine refreshes in under 5 hours. If I do it when I go to bed that’s too soon. If I do it after the overnight soaking, how long can the dough hang in the fridge while the starter refreshes?Thank you.Reply
    • Cynthia saysOctober 13, 2017 at 11:36 AMI just looked up Bob’s Red Mill artisan flour, which is between 12 to 14% protein, and the artisan flour weighs 144 g per cup! I used much less than that, based on King Arthur bread flour, which is 120 g per cup. Perhaps that is why my hydrating dough mix was so sticky throughout.Reply
60. Elena saysOctober 12, 2017 at 2:26 PMhello Trevor! thanks for the article. I’d love to ask you about the temperature of the oven during baking. you mentioned 450 degrees Fahrenheit (it is our (232,222 Celsius) but I usually bake at higher temperatures. I start at 500 or even 518 Fahrenheit, then after 20 minutes I lower the temperature. sometimes I do not lower it. in general I bake my loaf for about 35 minutes. is that wrong?Reply
61. Libby saysOctober 25, 2017 at 7:26 AMThank you for sharing your knowledge. I am novice baker. I tried this recipe for the first time and I am very happy with the result. 🙂Reply
62. Josiah saysNovember 22, 2017 at 9:57 PMI’m having an incredibly hard time with this recipe.Up til now, I’ve had some pretty decent success with a levain or poolish. Following these instructions, though, my bread consistently comes out of the combo cooker rubbery, dense, with an uneven oven spring.I’m sure my starter is fine. Today I retarded my second rise to avoid overproofing, which I thought might have been the culprit last time.I’m using KA Bread flour and WW flour, with BRM dark rye for my 50 grams of starter.Any idea what might be going on here? Why am I having better success with higher hydration doughs? I’d love to work from low hydration and get better at handling. Something about the overnight autolyse process just isn’t working out for me.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 4, 2017 at 7:30 PMHi Josiah, I would really need to be there in person to see for myself what’s going on. I can only really speculate from here. But if your bread is coming out rubbery and dense with an uneven ovenspring, that’s a possible sign of underproofed bread. Underproofed dough is usually a result of an insufficiently active starter.Now, I know you say your starter is fine, and it very well may be. But I’ve seen many times where folks think their starter is fine, but after further examination it turns out that it’s not as active or healthy as they thought. So for comparison’s sake, a typical healthy and vigorous starter should be able to at least double in volume within 8 hours of refreshment (tripling is better) with a typical feed ratio of 1:2:2 at room temp. Being that your starter is rye, it may not have the same rising power as wheat. I’ve only had limited experience with rye starters so take my advice for what it’s worth. But last time I kept a rye starter, I believe that it was able to rise that much (if my memory serves, which it often doesn’t).If your starter is perfectly fine, then other culprits could be cold temps or too short of a bulk. The amount of starter in this recipe is very small — half (or less) of what most recipes might call for. Perhaps that’s causing issues. Additionally, if your rye starter is 100% hydration it will be much stiffer than my 100% hydration wheat starter (because rye absorbs more water). It’s hard to mix a small amount of stiffer starter into a stiff dough like this. Perhaps you’re not able to incorporate it very evenly?Like I said, I’m really just speculating here. My best suggestion is that, if your starter is perfectly fine, then perhaps just use more of it in the recipe (100g or so). Make sure your temps are warm, and make sure that the dough rises at least 30% in volume during the bulk before shaping. If it takes longer then it takes longer. And if you’re still having trouble after that, then perhaps this method just isn’t right for you. There are many other ways to get an open crumb from stiff dough — this just happens to be one that I like quite a bit. Sorry I couldn’t be of more help.Cheers!TrevorReply
63. Grace Lim saysDecember 17, 2017 at 3:13 PMHi Trevor,I came across your YouTube video on the Rubaud method and looked no further. I have baked this stiff dough recipe a number of times with huge success. The loaf received great reviews from friends who have tried it. I write to let you know this. Your blogs and the open crumb mastery book have helped me understand the whole process. Thanks very much.GraceReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 20, 2017 at 9:47 PMThanks for the feedback Grace! Much appreciated! I’m glad you’ve found my work helpful! And I’m happy to hear that you’re getting some good reviews for your bread!Cheers!TrevorReply
64. Tyler Alexander saysDecember 20, 2017 at 4:49 PMTrevor,
    Thank you so much for this post. I have been experiencing hits or misses with my normal sourdough and it wasn’t until I read this post and tried the bread that I realized it was my shaping. By the way, the holes on this bread were huge. It really looked like a 75-80% hydration bread. The only thing I wasn’t happy with was the density of the bread. I know it’s a stiffer dough but would the medium dense crumb be from shaping? I can’t imagine it was proofing, or my starter because this bread had great ovenspring and a holey structure. Any insight would be great and keep up the good work!Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 20, 2017 at 10:04 PMHey Tyler, it’s difficult to diagnose any problems without more information. Pictures are usually best. But if I’m understanding you right, it sounds like you’re getting a combination of big holes, but dense crumb elsewhere. Is that correct? If so, that’s usually a sign of underfermentation, especially during the bulk stage. Is your dough rising much during the bulk stage? Typically, you want at least a 30% rise in volume during bulk, otherwise the dough may end up with a crumb exhibiting a few big holes that are surrounded by dense (and often gummy) crumb.And if that’s the case, usually underfermented bread is a result of an insufficiently active starter. A healthy and active (wheat-based) starter should at least double (or better yet, triple) in volume within 8 hours of refreshment with a typical refreshment ratio like 1:2:2 at room temp. If your starter isn’t that active, then that could be a contributing factor.Of course, without seeing for myself what’s going on, I’m really just speculating here. But I hope it helps!Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Tyler Alexander saysDecember 22, 2017 at 1:52 PMTrevor,
        Thank you for taking the time to respond. You nailed it with the big holes surrounded by gummy areas. I was scared you would say it was my starter. How can I add some strength to it? The starter doubles (barely) in the timeframe you stated. Granted, my house is kept at a cool 67 during these winter months, but I hope you can provide some insight.TylerReply
65. Marco saysJanuary 24, 2018 at 1:21 PMHi Trevor,well….THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!The way you approach baking is really what I’d like to learn and then to follow…..after read your book, which I found really inspiring, I decided to nominate you as my Mentor :-)!!!In your book I saw many time myself, in some way, I’m a “pro” taught to speed and to get the job done………I never enjoyed the “rough” way I had to handle doughs, so I always tried my best to approach it with as much care possible as I could….and then I started to bake at home just for passion to get the bread in the way I love, but when the “work” become second nature is difficult step away from it…….your book gave a new Horizon to focus in…..Thanks heaps!!!!I started with ” A Sunny Day’s Loaf” as a sort of kind of course and I’m going to bake it on regular basis till I do not get a good open crumb….to relearn proper gentle dough handling and then I’ll move on to “New Stater test Loaf”……….till I’ll be able to tackle wet Doughs…..My question is: if I’d like to apply the premix method of yours in a Bakery environment and after the long autolyse how can I approach to mix the starter in with the mixer?CheersMarcoReply
66. Cristina Lunardeli de Oliveira saysJanuary 29, 2018 at 10:36 AMOlá Trevor,
    Com tua receita e vídeo consegui meu primeiro pão de resultado super positivo com fermento natural!Obrigada!Reply
67. Patrícia das Neves saysFebruary 6, 2018 at 7:18 PMHi, Trevor
    This post is just perfect for me! I’m a beginner working with stiff dough and my first breads aren’t good. I’m from Brazil and need to adapt the one thing. What’s your room temperature?
    Thanks!Reply
68. Cindy saysMarch 1, 2018 at 1:59 PMHi Trevor-Both for this dough and the Euro Peasant, my doughs are wetter than yours, so I have narrowed that down to either the bagged Bob’s Red Mill Whole Wheat flour or the bulk King Arthur Special Bread Flour and I think it’s the white bread flour. They were both so sticky it was hard to mix them and I had to add a little flour when mixing the pen crumb/stiff dough to get the starter to mix in without tearing the dough, even with rest periods. And with the Euro dough, when I went back for the second mix, the dough was slack and sticky instead of growing more tense as it did in the first mix. In that case, did the gluten start to break down? Will the gluten break down faster if the dough is too wet during mixing? How do we assess how much water to add for our given flour? Thanks.Reply
69. Deborah saysApril 4, 2018 at 3:50 PMI followed the recipe and noticed that my dough was a bit on the sticky side. Maybe because my bread flour here has only 11.2 g of protein? I followed the exact instructions for the bulk rising time as well and my bread would not hold its shape, it was more like a soup. I still managed to shape it. I noticed it got lots of huge air bubbles during the final proof and I wonder why. I then baked it in my preheated Dutch oven and got barely any oven spring. There is also a mouse hole throughout the middle of the loaf. The taste is great, but the crumb is not nearly as nice as in the pictures. I must add though that this is the third loaf of flat breads I produced the last weeks, I wonder if my starter has issues? Also saw in your video that your starter looks way stiffer than mine, even though the hydration is the same. Guess that really might be the issue. It always passes the floating test though. It is confusing.. anyway, I hope to be able to get a result at least half as good as you anytime soonReply
70. Tony saysApril 28, 2018 at 8:26 PMExcellent post. I’ve been getting similar results with lower hydration dough but my blind commitment to the high hydration paradigm prevented me from actually seeing the obvious and positive results from using less water.Thank you.Reply
71. Lydia saysMay 20, 2018 at 11:54 AMI am new to sourdough bread making and prior to this technique have had limited success on my loaves. Since trying this I am baking loaves that look great. Thank you for such a detailed explanation.Reply
72. Nikita saysJune 10, 2018 at 11:42 AMHi Trevor, thanks so much for this recipe! I’m new to baking and I have about 4 failed bakes under my belt. This was the first loaf that I was actually able to handle and it had a wonderful rise when it came out of the oven. There’s definitely room for improvement though, so a couple of questions:
    1. After I transferred the proved dough to the banneton, I found a few big bubbles on the surface. Is this because of the proofing time being too long/short? Or is it maybe not shaped tight enough?
    2. How can I get a crispy crust on the bread? I bake it in a preheated dutch oven.
    3. I sliced an X shape into the dough right before baking but when I pulled the bread out it had filled out completely and was rounded out. Is that normal?Reply
    • Eric Moss saysJuly 12, 2018 at 8:16 PMI have the same issue as you on #3. For #2, try a spray bottle with cold water. Spray the loaf right before putting it in the oven. Also put a shallow pan in the oven, let it get hot, and dump a few tablespoons of cold water on it right after putting the loaf in the oven. Close the door before the steam escapes. Professional ovens inject steam which has the same effect.Reply
73. Rachel saysAugust 17, 2018 at 9:23 PMJust followed your process and this is my best loaf yet! I’ve been using the same tartine style recipe for 6 months and I am so sick of the high hydration dough. Thanks!!!Reply
74. Shoshi saysAugust 26, 2018 at 9:29 PMI have been making sourdough since June, with varying degrees of success. I’ve been doing a lot of online research and there are so many different (and conflicting!) methods. Then I found your fabulous Youtube video and decided to give it a try. I’ve done it several times, and on Saturday, made my best one yet. Like other commenters on here, I’ve had dreadful problems with the dough being ultra-sticky and wet. Until this time, I’ve been using a 50-50 mix of white bread flour and wholemeal rye, and I wondered if this was causing the problem. My latest loaf was made with wholemeal wheat instead of the rye, and it was a lot better – but my dough handling technique has improved as well, so it may have been down to that.I have kept a record of my progress on my blog, and today I’ve done a post about the latest loaf, together with a history of my sourdough journey from the beginning, and you can see it, with pictures, here: http://shoshiplatypus.blogspot.com/2018/08/best-sourdough-bread-yet.htmlI have a couple of questions. First, what is your opinion about the rye flour? Is this what has made the dough so difficult to handle? Do I need to adjust the hydration? I do love the flavour of the rye and would not want to stop using it.Secondly, is it possible with this method to divide the dough into two portions at any stage? I have some small bannetons which are not large enough for this quantity of dough, and I don’t want to halve the quantity and make only one small loaf because it’s an awful waste, heating up the whole oven for that. I had to prove the large loaf in a bowl. There’s the added problem that if I make two, I can’t use the Dutch oven because it will only take one. I’m in a bit of a quandry about that. I don’t have a baking stone, and I only have a normal domestic oven which isn’t sealed and it’s very hard to generate enough steam.I have watched your video so many times (usually while I’m actually doing it) that it will probably have gone viral by now! It’s absolutely brilliant, and you make it so clear what you are doing. The extra info on your website has been a huge help, too. Thank you so much.ShoshiReply
75. Shoshi saysNovember 6, 2018 at 4:08 AMFollowing on from my last comment, I am now experiencing problems. I don’t think I’m doing anything different, but when I turn the bread out into the Dutch oven, it immediately spreads and I’m getting hardly any oven spring. Each week I am producing flat turtles. Could this be anything to do with colder weather?I’d be very grateful for a reply to my comments, Trevor – I’d really like to be making consistently good sourdough.Thanks in advance,
    ShoshiReply
76. Samuel saysNovember 24, 2018 at 7:00 PMHi Trevor, I really appreciate and enjoyed your method. Here’s my question. I work in a brick oven bakery and was hired to produce nice open crumb sourdough bread. I really want to do your bread. There’s one problem. They only have a small fridge. How can I improvise to produce it strictly at room temperature for all stages including the pre-mix autolyse stage? For example, if I start the pre-mix stage at 6pm and leave at room temperature until 11am next morning(when I return to work) will it ruin? Please advise. Thanks!Reply
77. Sabine Mosner saysJanuary 4, 2019 at 12:29 PMHi Trevor, I’m still at an early stage messing with sourdough, and am trying to refine by changing one thing at a time. Having found your really helpful site I want to try your overnight mixing method, but the rest of my approach calls for overnight proofing in the fridge (having started bulk fermentation about lunchtime) – this has worked well for me. Trying to work out whether two overnights in the fridge will be too much? Any thoughts please?Reply
78. Sabine Mosner saysJanuary 4, 2019 at 12:30 PMHi Trevor, I’m still at an early stage messing with sourdough, and am trying to refine by changing one thing at a time. Having found your really helpful site I want to try your overnight mixing method, but the rest of my approach calls for overnight proofing in the fridge (having started bulk fermentation about lunchtime) – this has worked well for me. Trying to work out whether two overnights in the fridge will be too much? Any thoughts please? (I got an error message, sorry if you get this twice).Reply