How to Make Tartine Style Country Bread [Video]

(Originally Published on May 3, 2016 by Trevor Wilson)

So what exactly makes this bread Tartine Style? Is it the same recipe as the classic Tartine loaf?

Nope.

Is it made with the same method then?

Not really.

So what’s the reason?

Basically, it boils down to a few similar characteristics. This bread is made with a very wet dough, has a fairly open crumb and a custardy texture. Additionally, it’s baked nice and dark (though admittedly not as dark as a typical Tartine loaf).

The real reason I call it “Tartine Style” is because that’s what people are searching for. Nobody’s hitting Google with a query for “high hydration bread with partial wholegrain and open crumb.” I could have just called it French Country Bread or Pain de Campagne.

The most accurate title for this loaf would be “Champlain Country Bread” because it’s basically just a variation on my Champlain Sourdough — it contains the same ratio of spelt to rye (2 to 1), just with a higher hydration and greater portion of whole grain.

But no one’s out there searching for “Champlain Country Bread” either.

So “Tartine Style” it is.

For better or worse, that is the most recognizable association for this style of bread. And it is becoming quite the popular style of bread. It seems that to some degree or another, many of us bakers (yours truly included) are suffering from an embarrassing little problem I call “Tartine Envy“.

But that’s for another article.

Right now, lets just get to the bread . . . I’ve rambled enough already.

Description

As noted, this bread is made with a very wet dough and a fair amount of whole grain. This is not a beginners bread. If you’re a newer baker, Tartine style loaves really aren’t the best place to begin.

I know, I know — you want the big holes. But as they say, you must first learn to walk before you can run.

Better to first learn how to get an open crumb from stiffer dough, then progress your way towards wetter and wetter doughs. Trust me, you’ll be less frustrated and, ultimately, a better baker for it.

Now, for those who’ve been around the block a time or two, what you’re gonna get from this bread is just what you’d expect — open creamy crumb, crunchy caramel crust, and a helluva fun time playing with some wet dough.

And the flavor . . .

Let me tell ya, this one is special.

Anyone who’s read my Champlain Sourdough article will know how much I love that 2 to 1 ratio of whole spelt to whole rye. To me it’s just perfect. Well, in this loaf we’ve upped that flavor profile to the next degree. At 33% of the flour, that whole grain combo truly sings.

Pure magic.

Additionally, this is such a great dough to work with. The spelt and rye really balance each other well. Spelt has a tendency towards over-extensibility. And at 22% of the flour in this dough, that extensibility would tend to make a limp and flattish bread.

Rye on the other hand is very plastic. It doesn’t exhibit much in the way of either extensibility or elasticity. But it does hold a shape. Kind of like clay.

When you combine the two grains at this ratio you’ll find that the rye really helps to counter the extreme extensibility of the spelt. Don’t get me wrong, this is still a very extensible dough. But the rye helps to give it a certain “body” that spelt normally lacks.

This dough just feels wonderful in the hand. It really wants to work with you. Show it a little love and it’ll bend over backwards to help you make some spectacular bread. Think of it like a puppy — it wants nothing more than to please you, and it will return your love ten fold.

But again, only if you’re experienced at handling wet doughs.

If you don’t have the hands, this dough will become your worst nightmare. You’ve been warned.

Recipe

250g Bread Flour
96g Whole Spelt
48g Whole Rye
330g Water
9g salt
75g Starter @ 100% Hydration (half all-purpose flour, half water)

Or in Bakers Percentage . . .

63.5% Bread Flour
24.4% Whole Spelt
12.2% Whole Rye
83.8% Water
2.3% salt
19% Starter @ 100% Hydration

Or Bakers Percentage for Final Dough . . .

67% Bread Flour (actually includes about 8.7% pre-fermented all-purpose flour)
22% Whole Spelt
11% Whole Rye
85% Water
2% Salt

Please note that I’m prone to rounding numbers here and there. For instance, the salt as measured in this recipe is actually 2.1% because my scale is only accurate to a gram, so I had to round up.

Directions

Autolyse

Pretty simple here. Just mix all your water and flour. Leave out the starter and salt. Don’t try to develop the dough here, just mix until everything is evenly incorporated. Then cover and let it rest for 1-2 hours, the longer the better.

Add Salt and Starter

Sprinkle on the salt then just weigh out the starter. It’s ok if the salt and starter touch — they can handle it, this isn’t grade school.

Mix

We’re gonna mix this in the bowl by hand. It’s not that difficult. Just see my video post “How to Mix Wet Dough” to see exactly how I proceed. Keep in mind that I condense these videos to reduce run time. So what you see is really just a brief montage of the complete process.

Just one thing to be aware of; when you first begin the “scooping” process it’s not going to seem like it’s all that effective. The dough will pull away from the bowl and just kind of flop around a bit.

But that’s temporary.

The dough is just a bit tight from mixing in the salt and starter. Once it begins to relax it will start sticking to the side of the bowl allowing the “stretch and scoop” action to work its magic. A little patience goes a long way.

Bulk Proof/Folds

This dough typically take 4-6 hours in the bowl — 5 hours is pretty common for me. As it so happens, the day I actually filmed this the dough was proofing much slower. I don’t know exactly why. It wasn’t the weather because it was actually warmer than usual.

Sometimes dough just has a mind of its own.

That’s why it’s important to listen to your dough and ignore the clock. My usual 5 hours of proofing turned into 7 for this particular batch.

For the folds, I like to give wet doughs like this a fold every 30 minutes for the first couple hours (4 folds over two hours) followed by hourly folds after that.

But fold according to your schedule. Don’t let the dough run your day.

Unlike other wet dough methods, we don’t use “stretch and fold” to develop the actual gluten — we’ve already done that with our hand mixing. The stretch and folds here are just to help build strength and structure. You could skip them altogether and still get nice bread. But by including them you’re gonna get a bit more ovenspring and, by extension, a more open crumb.

Pre-round

I get a lot of questions about my process here, so I just want to elaborate a bit.

I developed this method as part of my own personal baking process. I’m a huge believer in keeping a dough’s integrity as best one can. It’s something I’ve gone into depth about in my article about shaping the perfect loaf.

In short, any time you tip out dough onto the bench you’re going to cause damage. Whether you scrape down the sides of the bowl as you pour out the dough, or whether you just let it cling to the sides, there will inevitably be some damage caused to the dough.

This compromises the integrity of your dough.

Of course, if you’re using a heavily oiled bowl (and not folding your dough) you might be able to get the dough to slide out cleanly and without damage. But for most of us, we plan on folding the dough and therefore we’re not oiling the bowl.

This method is my way of releasing the dough from the bowl without causing any more damage than necessary. To me, the late fold and clean release is preferable to the somewhat clumsy method of scraping dough out of the bowl.

But . . .

Its effectiveness is dependent upon a few conditions:

1) The dough in the bowl must not be too proofy. Usually about a 50% rise is the top end for this to work well. After that, the dough becomes a bit too weak to tolerate such a late fold — it will possibly deflate more than it would if you just tip it out as normal.

2) You must have been giving the dough regular folds. This method relies upon the development of tension in the bowl to help the dough release. Folds develop tension. If you haven’t been folding your dough it will be much looser and might possibly deflate due to the relaxed gluten and the fact that it will have been sticking as it climbs the sides of the bowl.

3) Your bowl surface is no stickier than the stainless steel bowls I use. I’ve never tried this in anything other than stainless steel. So long as your surface is nonporous (steel, ceramic, glass) I don’t think it should be a problem. Plastic might be different. I can only really speculate here.

4) You have decent dough handling ability and bench knife skills. It goes without saying that the experienced can make something look easy whereas the inexperienced will find difficulty. It’s just the nature of skill work. Anyone who’s ever picked up a guitar knows it’s not quite as easy as the pros make it look. Well, it’s the same with baking. Dough handling is a skill that takes time and practice to develop. I’ve been baking for a very long time, so just because everything looks easy in my hands does not necessarily mean that it will be so easy in yours.

It takes practice to get this stuff right.

But then again, if you’re a beginning baker you shouldn’t even be attempting this bread — you did read my warning, right?

Shape

Shape in your preferred manner. I used a “stitching” method to shape a batard here, but feel free to shape however you like.

Proof

Let the dough rise in a linen-lined basket lightly dusted with rice flour. This dough usually proofs in 2-4 hours at room temperature. You can also retard the loaf if you prefer. Retarding the loaf will give you a more sour flavor and a “lacier” crumb structure.

I usually tend to proof at room temp, but I really enjoy this loaf with a bit more tang. When I retard a loaf it looks something like this: 1) Shape. 2) Proof at room temp for 1-2 hours. 3) Refrigerate (not sure of my fridge temp). 4) Remove after 24 hours to bake directly from fridge, or remove earlier and let finish proofing at room temp for another 1-3 hours.

How we retard our loaves is a very individual process determined by a multitude of variables, so I can’t give specific instructions here. It’s really just a matter of trial and error until you figure out a process that works well for you.

Score/Bake

I personally like to score this loaf with just a slash down the center in order to get that nice big ear. But feel free to score however you like. I won’t go into detail here about exactly how to score. In other words, if you’re able to handle this dough and bake this loaf then you already know the techniques involved in getting a nice ear from your cut.

And if you don’t know the proper technique, well . . .  you shouldn’t be attempting this loaf.

Bake in a dutch oven or combo cooker at 500F covered for the first 20 minutes, then remove the lid and finish baking at 450F for another 35 minutes or so.

Whenever I bake above 450F I use shielding to prevent the bottom crust from burning. For me, that means a couple sheet pans inverted and stacked on top of each other, placed on the rack just below the combo cooker. This creates a pocket of air between the two that acts as a nice layer of insulation. It’s a handy little method I learned over at The Fresh Loaf.

I’ve also seen folks use the lid of their combo cooker (the “pot” half, in this case) as shielding. After the first 20 minutes of baking you simply remove the lid, flip it over, and set it on the rack; then set the pan (with the loaf in it) on top of it. This doesn’t work for me because of height issues in my oven, but it could be worth a try if your oven has the height and if it doesn’t put your loaf too close to one of the heating elements.

And for some, simply placing the dutch oven on top of a baking stone is all the shielding required.

Of course, you can bake the bread directly on a baking stone (or baking steel) and steam with your preferred steaming method. Whatever works best for you.

Now, Tartine loaves are known for being baked very dark — practically black in some areas. The idea is that color = flavor. So more color = more flavor, right?

Well . . .

This is really a subjective matter. For me, too much black on a loaf (or almost black, for that matter) creates bitter flavors and a charcoal taste to the crust. Not really my idea of good flavor. Plus it doesn’t leave the bread much in the way of breathing room if you plan to toast it.

So I bake dark (usually), but not quite as dark as some would prefer. Again, it’s really just a matter of taste. So bake it however dark or light you want. There is no one right way. Anyone who says a darker loaf is inherently superior to a lighter loaf is just blindly preaching dogma. This is your bread; make it how you like it.

Cool and Enjoy

You know the deal here. Wait at least 2 hours before slicing into this bad boy, 12 hours is even better. This loaf really does need a bit of time for the crumb to set.

But if you want to cut into it while it’s still hot then go for it. I won’t judge.

Cheers!

Trevor J. Wilson

Original comments no longer active.

Comments

1. Barry saysMay 4, 2016 at 10:45 AMBeautiful post and video, Trevor. Thank you!Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 5, 2016 at 8:49 AMThanks Barry! I’m glad you enjoyed it!Reply
   • Ernie Beggs saysJanuary 11, 2017 at 4:54 PMGreat visual …n I do like the follow up of the written recipe….thanks…will b trying other recipes of yoursReply
   • Dianna saysMarch 12, 2018 at 12:17 PMHello Trevor!
     Of all the videos I’ve watched and I’ve watched ALL of them on YouTube, yours have been the most instructional and enjoyable. Thank you!!. Now for the very embarrassing question. In regard to not over browning the bottom and using inverted sheet pans, Are these pan placed under the Dutch oven itself or on a separate oven rack under the dutch oven? Thank you again!Reply
     • Trevor Wilson saysMarch 12, 2018 at 2:12 PMHi Dianna, either way can work. Usually, I just place the inverted pans on the rack below the dutch oven. But if I have a baking stone in the oven, then I’ll set the inverted pans on the baking stone and place the dutch oven directly on the pans. Whatever works, really. Just be careful if placing the dutch oven on inverted pans — you don’t want one edge of the pan to slip and cause the whole set up to collapse and tip your dutch oven. I offset my sheet pans so that they are more sturdy. I hope that helps!Cheers!TrevorReply
2. Robin saysMay 4, 2016 at 11:52 AMTrevor you make this look so easy .. You are very inspiring. Thank you for giving me hope I can make this gorgeous loaf!Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 5, 2016 at 8:51 AMThank you Robin! I appreciate your king words. Always keep hope — if you do something long enough you will become good at it. Best of luck!Reply
3. Bryan saysMay 4, 2016 at 12:16 PMLove your posts, I am new to bread making and have learned so much from your site, really enjoy the techniques you share. I always look forward to a new post, thank you for what you do!Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 5, 2016 at 8:53 AMThanks Bryan, I really appreciate that! I’ve been enjoying making the videos and sharing my own particular views about bread baking. I’m glad I can help some folks out a bit. Cheers!Reply
4. Quinny saysMay 5, 2016 at 2:12 PMThank you for your inspiration. Now, I really have something to improve upon. One question, if you don’t mind. If I want to add flavorings (nuts, seeds or herbs, etc), at which point should I do it? The original Tartine recipe says after the first fold. Would that be okay with your method?Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 5, 2016 at 6:59 PMHi Quinny, I’m glad you liked it! You could try adding them after the first fold, but it might be a bit more difficult than with the Tartine recipes. That’s because Tartine uses the stretch and folds as part of the dough development process, and so the flavorings will distribute a bit easier because the gluten hasn’t fully developed yet.With this method, we’ve already developed the gluten with the mixing in the bowl, and just rely on the folding to add strength and structure. Since the gluten’s fully developed there will be a bit more resistance to getting those flavorings incorporated evenly. I don’t think it’s impossible, but maybe not ideal.Instead, I would just add them after the autolyse, at the start of the mixing stage along with your salt and starter. They’re unlikely to do any damage since we’re using a wet dough and mixing by hand. That way they’ll get evenly incorporated right from the start. Give it a try and let me know how it goes. Cheers!Reply
     • Quinny saysMay 6, 2016 at 12:26 PMI have tried adding some herbs & seeds after the first fold and it seems to work fine. But I think if I would add something bigger, I would follow your recommendation and add it before mixing. Thank you so much! I really appreciate it.Reply
       • Trevor Wilson saysMay 6, 2016 at 1:21 PMNice! Trying things out for yourself is always the best method when it comes to such an individualized pursuit as bread baking. I think you’ve got the right idea. Cheers!Reply
5. ben saysMay 6, 2016 at 5:26 AMTrevor, well done on a great post and n excellent website! You’re videos are some of the most helpful I’ve seen; simple and instructive. You need to get pushed up the google rankings, because I know a lot of novice bakers would derive serious benefit from your site.Keep up the good work.BenReply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 6, 2016 at 1:19 PMThanks Ben! I appreciate the vote of confidence! As much as I’d love to get noticed by google, I just don’t see that happening anytime soon. I do next to zero SEO so I expect to remain fairly obscure for a while. Hopefully not forever though! Cheers buddy!TrevorReply
6. Cliff saysMay 16, 2016 at 5:31 AMHi Trevor. Thanks for the blog. I have picked up lots of interesting insights and new techniques.
   What’s the protein content of your white bread flour you use?Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 17, 2016 at 9:31 AMHi Cliff, I’m glad you like it! I typically use King Arthur Bread Flour with a protein content of 12.7%. Actually though, I often use King Arthur All-Purpose as well, which is 11.7%. For my videos and recipes I generally prefer to go with bread flour because it offers a greater margin for error to provide a bit of a safety net for some of the newer bakers that might be reading my stuff. Using AP makes for a more delicate dough that requires greater handling skill.But when I’m baking just for myself, I switch it up between bread flour and AP pretty frequently. It just depends on what characteristics I’m looking for. Sometimes I prefer the chewiness of bread flour, other times I prefer the tenderness of AP. Cheers!TrevorReply
     • Cliff saysMay 17, 2016 at 6:07 PMThanks, that helps.
       How come you don’t do your pre mix method with this recipe?Reply
       • Trevor Wilson saysMay 18, 2016 at 8:12 AMI generally don’t use the pre-mix method with very wet doughs. It’s not that it won’t work — it certainly could. But it comes with a much higher risk of things going wrong. Wetter dough is much more enzymatically active, prone to wild fermentation, and has a weaker gluten matrix. So it’s more likely to develop off-flavors or end up with weak sticky degraded gluten.If you wanted to use the pre-mix method with really wet dough the best way to go about it would be to leave it in the fridge for the entire night and only take it out 2-3 hours prior to adding the starter. That should keep the dough in good condition. Now, since I begin baking shortly after I wake up, if I wanted to use that method I would have to set my alarm to wake me up so that I could take it out of the fridge and then hope I’m able to fall back asleep for a couple hours — an iffy proposition. So I just prefer to mix the entire dough in the morning.If you experiment using the pre-mix method with wetter doughs please let me know how it goes. Cheers!Reply
         • Zach saysJuly 31, 2016 at 12:27 PMHave you ever tried premixing at around 70%, then adding the rest of the water with the starter in the morning? I’m thinking about giving that a shot next weekend.Reply
           • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 2, 2016 at 8:36 AMHey Zach, I’ve only added water to the premix the next morning when I’ve used a small amount of stiff starter in the recipe. In that case, I’ll typically reserve a small portion of the water so that I can use it to soften up the starter in order to mix it in easier. If that’s your plan then it should work just fine.But if you’re thinking of bumping the premix from 70% to a full 85% the next morning that’s a different beast. It can certainly be done, but just be aware that you’re in for a very sloppy mess until you get all that water worked into the dough. Because the premix method fully develops the gluten overnight, it might be very difficult to get that extra water worked in the next morning. The dough ball will just slip and slide around the bowl. With enough time and effort, however, you’ll probably be able to get it all worked in.So I’m not advising against trying it, just giving you a heads up of what to expect. In fact, I kind of hope you do try it — if so, please report back to me and let me know your results. You’ve got me curious now.Cheers!TrevorReply
7. Missy saysMay 16, 2016 at 10:54 PMI’ve been baking tartine style loaves for about 1.5 years. At first I would skip pre-shape/bench rest (because I didn’t know any better), and then realized I was getting huge holes at the top and dense crumb on the bottom. Then, I noticed I was getting a dense crumb no matter what I did. But you proof the dough first then throw it in the fridge, and tartine tells you to put it right in the fridge after final shape. I’ve since realized my loaves came to a stop and never proved/proofed properly because my fridge is too cold. I’ve read other sites that say put it right in the fridge after shaping. I KNEW IT (saying sarcastically)! Why do they tell you to do that? It’s like you can only get a mediocre loaf, at best!Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 17, 2016 at 9:51 AMHi Missy, it basically comes down to the same problem that all baking instructions and recipes face — there are simply too many variables to prescribe just one perfect way. What’s intended, though unfortunately seldom mentioned, is that all bakers must adjust as necessary. So when an author gives you a set of directions — like refrigerate shaped loaves immediately — that author is telling you what worked for him or her. It in no way guarantees that it will work for you.So it’s up to us to change things as we see fit. This usually requires a bit of experimentation, but eventually we’ll find what works best for us. When it comes to refrigerating loaves I actually use many different methods. Sometimes I leave it out only 20-30 minutes before refrigerating, sometimes I let it proof almost completely. Sometimes I bake straight from the fridge, sometimes I let it finish proofing at room temp for a few hours first. Once you understand how the process works for you, you can manipulate the variables in different ways to achieve different results. That gives you flexibility. And flexibility is much better than being bound to the strict directions of a recipe.Cheers!TrevorReply
     • Missy saysMay 17, 2016 at 11:33 PMThanks for your insight! I guess the experiments continue!Reply
8. sam saysMay 23, 2016 at 2:20 AMHi, just some constructive criticism here. I love your photography; but I think you need to lay low with the over-saturated photos here and on Instagram. You want your gallery to flow, maybe even look natural depending on your style – and I want you to attract a higher audience because I love the work you’re creating. The over-contrasted and over-saturated effects distract from the bread as the central focal point.Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 23, 2016 at 7:45 PMHey Sam, thanks for the feedback. And I actually agree with you. The problem is that I have absolutely no photography skills whatsoever. Ideally, I’ll learn those skills over time and transition my photography to a more natural looking style. But for the time being, this will have to do.Actually, what happens fairly often is that I do the image processing on my phone and everything looks great. Then when I upload the photo to my computer it looks way more processed than it did on my iphone. But I’m too hesitant to reprocess the image. I have a very strong perfectionist streak and if I allow myself to get drawn into the image editing process too much I’ll never get anything published. So I just grit my teeth and hit the “publish” button. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than analysis paralysis. Cheers!TrevorReply
9. Peng saysMay 24, 2016 at 5:01 AMNice blog Trevor! I just came across your instagram account which leads me here. I instantly started reading all your posts and they are really inspiring and helpful for novice amateur baker like myself.I have been baking sourdough bread for a few months and the results are quite inconsistent — some times the crumb looks nice but other times not so appealing. I guess I just need to practice more but meanwhile I am really hunger for some instructions/guidance and here you are, providing amazing video tutorials and discussions of the key topics in bread making. Thanks a lot!BTW, my recent two bakes left me with some weird looking crumb structures and it would be very kind if you could pin point where I could be doing wrong.The recipe I followed is more or less the basic country loaf from the book Tartine Bread, I have just increased the percentage of whole wheat a little bit. The shaped loaf was retarded for about 10 hours in refrigerator.Pictures 1: http://i.imgur.com/iDMEEt9.jpg
   Pictures 2: http://i.imgur.com/oYNLEeB.jpgThere are several very huge holes concentrated in the upper half of the loaf and the bottom half is relatively dense. If you look closely, you can see the wall of some holes looks like getting teared during rising in the oven.Cheers and keep up with the blogging 🙂Reply
   • Trevor Wilson saysMay 25, 2016 at 10:16 AMHi Peng, I’m glad you like my site! The crumb in your picture is the crumb of an underproofed loaf. The combination of a few huge holes (and sometimes a flying crust) surrounded by a web of tight, dense and often gummy crumb is the tell tale sign of an underproofed dough. So the question becomes: was it underproofed during the bulk stage or the final proof (or both)?You’ll know the dough is underproofed during the bulk if it hasn’t gained much volume during the proof, or if after you preround the loaf it can’t hold shape and just flattens out into a pancake.You’ll know the dough is underproofed during the final proof if it hasn’t gained much volume during the proof (same as the bulk), or the loaf still feels heavy and dense and it fails the finger-poke test. If you press your finger a half-inch or so into the loaf and the dough feels tight and springs right back into place then that means the loaf is underproofed and shouldn’t go in the oven yet. The finger-poke test is not entirely fool proof, but it’s a good measure to start with.Because your loaf has decent shape (i.e. not a flat disk) I’m inclined to think your dough was probably proofed ok at the bulk stage, but underproofed after shaping. That’s really just a guess since I wasn’t there to see it in person. If that’s the case, then the fix is simply to let it proof longer after shaping next time.If your dough was too young during the bulk stage, it could also be as simple as letting it proof longer (or warmer). But it could also indicate a sluggish starter that’s not sufficiently strong enough to raise bread. Judging by the picture I don’t think that’s the case here, but it’s certainly a possibility to consider.I hope that helps out a bit. Let me know if you have any further questions. Cheers!TrevorReply
     • Peng saysDecember 6, 2016 at 5:07 AMHi Trevor, thanks for the great advices. I did’t got around baking right after you commented but I recently started baking again! After some trail and error I finally archived what I think a small success in baking the country loaf. Turns out my previous failed attempts are indeed due to underproof either during bulk or final proof. And I also started using your scoop method to build enough strength into the dough and I guess that helped as well. The dough feels just right during shaping when it’s properly proofed. Thanks a lot.Some pictures 🙂
       
       http://i.imgur.com/zSGgVww.jpg
       http://i.imgur.com/bgf9KEA.jpgReply
       • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 14, 2016 at 12:25 PMHey, sorry this is coming so late. I just now found your comment while looking through my “spam” box. I guess the filter thought you might be spam because of the links attached to your message (though usually it gives me the option to review the message before going straight to spam). Anyway, I’m glad to hear that you’re starting to get some good results. The pictures of the loaf you sent are beautiful! Very nice shape and crumb. That’s truly an excellent looking loaf of bread. Well done! At this point, all I can really say is keep up the good work!Cheers!TrevorReply
10. Richard Port saysMay 30, 2016 at 11:58 AMGreetings from Utah. Great video and recipe. Turned out very nice. Can’t wait to try the next one. I am getting my start feed and ready for the European peasant next. Thanks for sharing and posting.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysMay 30, 2016 at 4:44 PMGreetings Richard! I’m glad you liked the video, and I’m happy the recipe turned out well for you! Be sure and let me know how it goes with the peasant bread — the recipes are fairly similar in style. I’m curious how you think they might compare. Cheers!TrevorReply
11. Agy saysJune 7, 2016 at 3:53 AMHi Trevor,
    I gave this one a shot but ended in spectacular over-proofed failure. As per instruction I started with 2h outside the fridge. Took it out from the fridge in the morning (around 12h) to see how it’s doing and it was already over-proofed. You mention 24h so I was sure I’m in the clear but nope. Shame. I was really looking forward to this bread.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJune 7, 2016 at 8:55 AMHi Agy, I’m sorry to hear that the loaf didn’t turn out for you. Proofing is a tricky thing to predict in a recipe, and even trickier when you add refrigeration to the mix. At best, any set of directions are really just a guide –not a guarantee. In that post I tried to emphasize the point when I wrote . . .“How we retard our loaves is a very individual process determined by a multitude of variables, so I can’t give specific instructions here. It’s really just a matter of trial and error until you figure out a process that works well for you.”What works for me clearly doesn’t work for you. With how quickly your loaf proofed in comparison to mine, you would probably be fine omitting the room temp proof entirely and just tossing it in the fridge. But again, only trial and error can show you what method of retarding works best for you. If you decide to try it again, I wish you luck. And please feel free to let me know if you have any questions, I’m happy to help.TrevorReply
12. Michele saysJune 29, 2016 at 5:11 AMHi Trevor,
    I found this websit just yesterday and it is really great.
    I’m totaly lost with the Bakers Percentage, can you tell me how did you get those percentages?thanks,
    MicheleReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJuly 3, 2016 at 10:07 AMThank you Michele! I’m glad you like it!Baker’s percentage is just the method whereby bakers measure all other ingredients against the weight of the flour. If you have 60g of water for every 100g of flour then the baker’s percentage of water is 60%. That’s also known as the dough’s hydration. So if you have a recipe that contains 1000g of flour, 600g of water, 20g of salt and 10g yeast; that would be a 60% hydration loaf with the standard 2% salt and 1% yeast. As you can see, the percentage isn’t in relation to the total weight of the dough.I’m not sure I explained that very well. So . . .Here’s the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_percentageAnd here’s what King Arthur Flour has to say: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/bakers-percentage.htmlI hope that helps. Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Michele saysJuly 19, 2016 at 12:33 PMHi Trevor,
        your explaination is very clear.thanks,
        MicheleReply
        • Trevor Wilson saysJuly 20, 2016 at 7:54 AMHi Michele, you’re very welcome. I’m happy to help! Cheers!Reply
13. Kimbo saysJuly 18, 2016 at 12:32 PMHey Trevor, question for you with regard to autolyse. I noticed that in some recipes you’ll mix the water, flour and salt together and leave it out overnight, and in this recipe you don’t. Is there a time when you want to do one vs. the other or is it just preference/convenience?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJuly 18, 2016 at 2:10 PMHey Kimbo, I’ve seen both your comments, but I’ll answer here for those that read the comments.I know I mentioned in my European Peasant Bread recipe that it would make a great candidate for using the premix method. My reasoning was that the higher portion of whole grain in the recipe would benefit from longer exposure to water.However, I’ve had a change of opinion since I wrote that.Well, sort of.The problem is twofold. 1) The higher the percentage of whole grain in a recipe, the greater the chance of runaway enzymatic activity and wild fermentaion. 2) The wetter the dough, the greater the chance for runaway enzymatic activity and wild fermentation.Since this is a wet dough that contains a fair portion of whole grain, it creates a riskier scenario when using the premix. If we experience too much enzymatic activity or wild fermentation we can end up with a weak and shaggy dough that makes for flat bread with noticeable off-flavors.So if it works it will work very well, but if it fails then it will fail spectacularly.I don’t like leaving much to chance when it comes to bread baking. So I’ve revised my thinking on this. I still believe an overnight soaking of whole grain is extremely beneficial so long as we avoid the previously mentioned problems. With that in mind, I’d say it’s okay to premix this dough, but that we must take precaution — and by that I mean we ensure that wild fermentation or enzymatic activity is minimal.The best way to do that is to keep it refrigerated overnight.But only do so with the understanding that come morning you will have a very cold dough, and this will make it more difficult to mix in the starter (since cold dough is stiffer than warm dough) and that fermentation will progress at a slower pace until the dough comes back up to room temperature.Also keep in mind that one of the benefits of premixing is to increase a dough’s extensibility. This is very helpful with stiffer dough since it’s not very extensible by nature. But wet dough is extensible by nature. So by premixing wet dough, we increase its extensibility even more. Thus it becomes very possible to end up with dough that’s too extensible and can’t hold tension or a decent shape.So with all that said, I personally don’t usually premix wet dough or high percentage whole grain doughs. I have done so, and had good success, but I’ve also had a few flops. If I do wish to premix the dough (usually just for convenience sake) then I keep it in the fridge overnight and accept the fact that it will be extremely extensible and get off to a slow start.I hope this helps to answer your question with a little more clarity. I should probably just update the article to make that clear.Cheers!TrevorReply
14. Oleg saysJuly 31, 2016 at 10:38 AMHi, Trevor. I admire your bread and for several months trying to bake this bread, I clearly follow your instructions, but my bread always turns sticky crumb. I ask you to help and advise what mistakes can lead to such a defect? I would be very grateful!Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 2, 2016 at 7:55 AMHi Oleg, I’m sorry to hear you’re having trouble with your crumb. There could be several things going on here. At the heart of the problem is an undercooked crumb. The real question is why is your crumb underbaked? A few possible reasons could be . . .1) You’re simply not baking it long enough or hot enough. Every oven is different, and so even if you follow my suggested bake time and temperatures it’s no guarantee that you’ll get the same result as me. You may have to adjust. It’s helpful to get an oven thermometer and test your oven in several areas to determine the actual baking temperature rather than just trusting that your oven is completely accurate.2) You’re cutting into the loaf too soon. Breads that contain a large amount of whole grain, such as this one, really do need a long time for the crumb to set. Even a 2 hour cooling off period is unlikely to provide enough time for the crumb to set. If you cut into the loaf before the crumb sets then it will be gummy and seemingly underbaked. The solution is simply to wait longer before cutting into the loaf. I prefer to wait 24 hours with breads such as this one.3) Your dough is underproofed at the time of baking. This is a very common problem, and may be the most likely explanation. If your dough hasn’t fully proofed, either during the bulk phase or the final proof, then the crumb remains too tight and so won’t be fully exposed to the heat for baking. This results in an underbaked and gummy loaf.How do you know if your loaf is underproofed?During the bulk proof, you can tell because your dough hasn’t risen much (at least 30% volume increase, 50% might be better). And when you preround the loaf it will just flatten out into a pancake. That’s a clear sign that there is not enough gas in the dough for it to hold its shape. This will also result in a loaf that spreads when you turn it out for baking, rather than standing proud. If your loaf spreads and becomes flat, instead of rising up, then that means it was likely underproofed during the bulk.During the final proof, you can use the finger-poke test to determine if the dough is fully proofed or not. While the finger-poke test isn’t fool proof, it does the job well enough in most cases. So if the dough springs back too quickly when you give it a good poke, then that means the dough is still too young to bake.I hope this helps out. Good luck!TrevorReply
15. Jane saysAugust 3, 2016 at 9:50 PMHi Trevor
    Really enjoy all your videos and the way you explain breadmaking. Like you, I’m also obsessed but haven’t been baking with natural yeast for as long. I’ve tried every technique I’ve read about and seen to find what suits me, and I’ve made many good loaves but also quite a few terrible ones! That doesn’t discourage me though 🙂
    Anyway, sorry for this long intro before getting to my question. I notice in your videos that after the initial mixing, you transfer the dough to a smaller mixing bowl for the bulk proof/folding stage. I’m guessing it is so that the dough has less room and won’t spread out so much, but I’m sure you’ll explain it better.
    Thanks in advance!Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysAugust 11, 2016 at 9:58 AMHi Jane, sounds like you’ve been bitten by the sourdough bug. And as you’ve already noticed, the challenge and the fun go hand in hand.To answer your question, you are correct — I prefer to proof my dough in a smaller vessel so that it doesn’t spread as much during the bulk. It seems to give a subtle improvement to the dough structure. I make a point to proof in my bowl with the highest (more vertical) sides. I also just prefer to proof in a clean bowl. If you proof your dough in the same container in which you mixed it then the dough will stick to all the bits that were left over on the sides of the bowl. Even if you scrape the bowl after mixing, there will almost always be some residue to which the proofing dough will cling. A clean bowl makes for dough that releases more easily during folds or turning out.I hope that helps give you a bit more insight. Cheers!TrevorReply
16. Samuel saysSeptember 21, 2016 at 6:21 AMThank you so much for your excellent video and explanation.
    Can you tell me please which a environment temperature should be while autolyse, mix, bulk proof and folds?
    Thanks a lot.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysSeptember 28, 2016 at 5:54 PMHi Samuel, you can use whatever temperature you like so long as it produces the results you’re looking for. I don’t typically prescribe dough temps or ambient temps since every baker’s situation and environment is different. Temperature is one of those things that bakers just need to decide for themselves.That said, I typically mix my dough with lukewarm to warm water (or cold water in hot weather) and aim for proofing my dough in ambient temps of around 78F to 84F. I find those temps to help the dough develop a nice flavor, but still allow for a long enough proof time to help the dough develop nice and smooth. But temps do vary, based on weather and my mood. Feel free to experiment with a wide range of temperatures to find out which you like best. Good luck!Cheers!TrevorReply
17. Michiel Eldering saysOctober 4, 2016 at 4:03 PMInspiring! Especially your attitude towards the dough ‘integrity’ of the dough. I have to work with less hard wheat here in the Netherlands but I’m sure going to give this a try (worked with wet dough before). Thanks, there are not many breadmakers that share their experience as elaborate aa you do. Looking forward to your new item.
    Fb @desembroodReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 8, 2016 at 7:53 PMThanks Michiel! I’m glad you’re enjoying my work! I try to always dig a bit deeper and fully explore a subject when I’m writing. Plus, sometimes I just get caught up in stream-of-conscious style writing so I tend to blab on and on about a topic. It makes for longer posts, but there’s usually a bit gold in all that blabber. At least, that’s what I tell myself.Cheers!TrevorReply
18. Julia allen saysOctober 13, 2016 at 8:56 AMTrevor thank you so much with your blog and video. Your instructions we clear and concise. Yesterday I had baked a loaf following your instructions and with the extra fold technique. I had managed to achieve height and the feather light crumbs. Thank you very much and keep up the good work.By the way, I am from UK and therefore the flour we have here are different from yours.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysOctober 15, 2016 at 2:55 PMThank you Julia! I’m glad my site has helped out a bit! I’ve never used UK flours, but by my understanding they’re typically lower protein than the North American flours I use. My guess is that you’ll need to lower the hydration a bit in order to get a similar dough consistency. Good luck!TrevorReply
19. Maximilian saysOctober 24, 2016 at 5:17 AMHi Trevor, first of all let me say.. thank you for your excellent bread tutorials. It’s a great and excellent work.
    I have a simple question about the dividing doughs. There are specific stops between the dividing and pre shaping of cuts? Sorry for my poor english I’m ItalianThank you
    MaximilianReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 1, 2016 at 9:06 PMThanks Maximilian! I’m glad you like them! I confess, I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking here. Probably just a translation thing. Are you asking if dividing and prerounding are two separate processes? If that’s your question, then the answer is “yes, sort of . . . ”The normal procedure is to turn out your dough, divide it into however many pieces are required, then preround each piece. But when making a single loaf at a time, such as in this recipe, there’s really no division so we just move straight into the prerounding step.If I misunderstood your question then let me know and I’ll try and give you a better answer.Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Maximilian saysNovember 11, 2016 at 6:40 AMDespite my awful english you understood my question! Thank you
        Cheers!
        MaxReply
20. Christian Bock saysOctober 25, 2016 at 6:05 PMDir Trevor,thank your for your Baking experience! It´s amazing how your loafs are looking and hopefully taste!!!
    I am am chef and i try to make the perfekt Brad for sandwiches i want to sell tham in a Deli/Cafe in the future. I try to make the Tartine Style Bread. I make first time in my life a soure dough(Starter). And than i start to bake bread like you do. But i fail.First Fail i don’t no what is bread flour.
    Now i now in Germany ist ,,Weizen Mehl Typ 812”.But now, i have one question how do you make your Starter?
    I take whole rye flour equal part warm water an the flour, mix it and let it set for 24 hours
    do this again and next day again.But how do you make it ????ThanksPS: Sorry for my embarrassing english.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 1, 2016 at 10:03 PMThanks for your kind words Christian! The thing to understand is that baking bread is a skill. And just like any skill, it takes time and practice to get good at. Feel and intuition are far more important than technique and method. If you’re trying to make Tartine style breads, then my guess is that you’re looking for that wide open crumb. It’s important to realize that open crumb is 80% proper fermentation and dough handling. Improve those two skills and your crumb will improve as well.So really, the key is to just practice practice practice.And the best way to practice is to reduce the hydration. By starting with a stiffer dough you allow yourself the opportunity to build up your skills with dough that’s actually manageable. As your skills improve then you can slowly start increasing the hydration bit by bit.To answer your questions . . .1) Bread flour is just a higher protein white flour. I’m not familiar with German flours, so I can’t say how it compares to your Type 812. I use King Arthur Bread Flour which is 12.7% protein. It’s a fairly strong flour and it’s great for bread baking.2) I’ve made a hundred starters, and I’ve made ’em a hundred different ways. Most any method will work if given enough time and attention. I’m particularly fond of the “just wait and see” method — I’ll mix up some flour and water then just let it sit for around 5 days. Then I’ll discard half of it or so, add some more flour and water, and see if it comes to life. If not, then I wait another 24-48 hours and try again. Once I see signs of regular activity then I’ll switch to twice a day refreshments until the starter becomes nice and active.I know that’s not particularly instructive, but I don’t believe in rigidity when it comes to making starters. I go by the signs and my intuition. Now, I actually have many many beliefs about how to make “good” starters (not just active starters), but that’s way too much info to provide here. Perhaps I’ll make a post someday . . .But if you’re looking for a good reliable method to put into action then I highly recommend the tutorial over at theperfectloaf.com. It’s well written, effective and beautifully photographed. Here’s a link . . .https://www.theperfectloaf.com/category/beginner/That should get you started on the right foot. Best of luck!TrevorReply
21. Lena saysOctober 27, 2016 at 6:35 PMWell I’m sitting here enjoying brunch of ‘Heaven in a crust’…..thanks for this post. I think , looking at the comments I may have slightly underproofed as it spread out a bit, but also I live in N.Z so the flour may be a bit water retentive! Next time I will use less water for sure as it definitely had trouble holding it’s shape…
    Tastes divine though and I will definitely be making it again. The best tasting non- white bake I’ve done in my short six months.
    Thanks Trevor, keep up the posts, we are all learning so much.
    And yes- Sourdough baking truly is addictive! Apart from the superior taste, I guess it must be the challenge of it all and that natural high when you take the lid off , lol!! ( Mostly, lol ! ) Must go- the beeper is calling 🙂Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysNovember 1, 2016 at 10:09 PMThanks Lena! I’m glad you like it! It sounds like you’ve got the right idea here — adjust as necessary! And you’re right, it really is the challenge of sourdough that makes it so addictive. As I always say, the joy is in the challenge.But the results ain’t too bad either . . .Just keep at it and you’ll find your breads getting better and better. So keep up the good work!Cheers!TrevorReply
22. Jeffrey Bellamy saysNovember 7, 2016 at 12:18 PMhttps://www.facebook.com/bellamy.jeff/media_set?set=a.10204707615783844.1073741834.1039956619&type=3&pnref=storyReply
23. Antonio saysNovember 28, 2016 at 7:03 PMHi! Love your receipts. I’m From Argentina.
    My question is what is the “Starter”?
    Thank youReply
    • Jeffrey Bellamy saysDecember 4, 2016 at 3:53 PMA mixture of flour and water in which wild yeast and bacteria grow to provide leavening for you bread.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 5, 2016 at 10:21 AMHi Antonio, just as Jeffrey mentioned — it’s a natural culture that can go by several different names: sourdough, levain, wild yeast, natural yeast, desem, and more. It’s a leaven that can be used in place of the commercial yeast that’s found in most breads. If you’re interested in making your own, I suggest reading the tutorial over at theperfectloaf.com. Here’s a link . . . https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/ Good luck!TrevorReply
24. Douglas saysDecember 3, 2016 at 8:58 AMhi Trevor – I’ve been baking sourdough for 7-8 months now, and am really happy to have found your site and your videos. I got all psyched up to make this ‘tartine style’ bread, and went off to my excellent natural foods shop to get spelt – only to discover that you cannot get spelt in Brazil, where I live!Any suggestions on how to alter the mix of flours to compensate a bit for the lack of spelt? Generally I bake with white (unfortunately not unbleached), whole wheat, rye and oats. I use some vital wheat gluten because our white flour is only 10% protein.Anyway, congratulations on your site and I’ll make this tartine-style bread one way or another!best wishes – DouglasReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 5, 2016 at 11:10 AMHi Douglas, I’m glad you’re enjoying my site! When it comes to replacing the splet in this recipe, you can just use plain ‘ol whole wheat flour instead. Whole wheat has a slightly different flavor than the whole spelt, plus spelt makes for very extensible gluten — which helps to balance the more plastic nature of the rye (whereas the whole wheat will add more elasticity in comparison). But it’s a close enough replacement that you should still get a similar bread with a similar character. Best of luck!TrevorReply
      • Douglas saysDecember 6, 2016 at 9:09 AMMany thanks for your reply, Trevor. I actually started my bread before I saw your suggestion, and as I felt like something without too much whole wheat, I went for this: 328g white, 25g whole wheat, and 11g rye. Plus 30g of vital wheat gluten, which we need here because our flour is only 10% protein. To be honest, I’ve been trying all year to re-create what our local artisan sourdough bakery makes, which has a very open crumb and thick crust. Following your method, I cracked it!!! I think your long autolyse and your unique way of mixing the dough has probably made the biggest difference. Plus all your tips on dough handling. I finally got a crumb I can shout about.The only thing I didn’t manage was to get an ear. The scoring did open up but it kind of merged with the rest of the surface, so it’s all completely flat. I’m guessing that either my scoring was too deep (?), or maybe my hydration was too high (I used 330g water just like you – but my flour mix was quite different from yours).Anyway this is one of the best breads I’ve ever made so I’m definitely going to spread the word about your method and keep making it whenever I get a craving for the ‘tartine’ experience.very best wishes from sunny BrazilDouglasReply
        • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 6, 2016 at 8:48 PMThat’s great Douglas! I’m glad to hear that you’re starting to get the results you’ve been looking for! When it comes to getting a good ear, it’s important to be aware that it’s really a matter of getting several things right. It’s not just a matter of hydration or scoring technique. It requires a well structured and nicely shaped loaf with plenty of surface tension (and the wetter the dough, the more important that surface tension becomes). It requires proper fermentation during the bulk and correct proofing after shaping. It requires clean scoring and a properly steamed baking environment.If you get even just one of those things wrong, then you greatly reduce your chances of getting that ear. Mess up two or more of them and you can forget about it. A nice ear is really just the icing on the cake. It’s a sign that you did many things right. Keep at it and you’ll get there. Cheers!TrevorReply
25. Vivian Israel-Barkai saysDecember 8, 2016 at 4:20 PMI have become an avid sourdough baker junkie for sure. Is received my first sourdough starter from someone from the Broadway Show “The Lion King conductors/keyboard players. I play cello there as a sub.Then
    Upon surfing The internet I found your site . I noticed that you use your hands like us string players use our fingers when playing. You are a a Master in your craft.
    I really love your method of hand mixing the wet dough, for me it’s like using my bow when playing the cello and the mixing brings Life to the dough .
    Thank you for sharing your artistry. I can’t wait for you to put up online your starter methods as well.
    You can hear a sample of my music on Sylphchambermusic.com
    ?Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 9, 2016 at 10:14 PMHey Vivian, you and I understand something similar — that hand skills, no matter their purpose, are hard to come by. They require dedication. Endless hours of practice. Commitment. I’ve listened to your music — you play beautifully. I play “some” guitar (but who doesn’t, right?) so I recognize the years you’ve put into your craft. Bread baking is the same. It’s not something that comes easily. Only the passionate can ever truly excel.Perhaps I’ll create a post about starters some day. You’re not the first to ask me about my methods. See my response to Kaleb on the Sourdough Pan Bread post — I go a bit more into depth about my opinions there. But I suppose a proper post is long overdue. Just gotta get my ass in gear. Anyway, I wish you the best on your baking journey. Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Vivian saysDecember 16, 2016 at 5:41 PMTrevor
        I just saw your response to my email. I was very excited to read that you listened to my music. Yes that hand motion is like magic and one either has it or hasn’t . They can learn the technique and come close to mastering the motions but there is usually a dimension missing.
        Today I am going to compare the European loaf with the Tartine and see which one I prefer.
        Trevor I do have a question to you . What would be the difference if I use APF instead of Bread Flour.
        Do you have a recipe that you enjoy using sprouted spelt flour ?
        Do you still experiment with different brands of flour or are you already hooked on certain brands?
        I am very glad to have found your site.
        Keep up the guitar playing . Thanks for the kind words of appreciation.We Artisans whether it is derived through Art, Music, Baking, Cooking,Prose, Poetry, or Design need appreciation of our Creations.
        Merry Christmas & Happy New YearReply
        • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 19, 2016 at 6:45 PMHey Vivian, the difference between APF and Bread Flour is fairly subtle. As far as the finished loaf goes, you can expect the loaf made with APF to be a bit more tender and maybe a bit less voluminous, whereas the Bread Flour makes for a chewier (which I like) and somewhat taller loaf. Flavor is comparable. As far as the dough goes, APF will make a slightly softer and stickier dough. More difficult to work with. It’s not a huge difference, but certainly noticeable. Either flour will work just fine, and in fact, I’ve made this recipe with APF many times and it turns out just fine.But here’s the thing, for an experienced baker the differences between the two flours tends to be minor. Skilled hands can correct for the differences in the flours. But for less experienced bakers, the Bread Flour offers a much greater margin for error. Bread Flour has a better tolerance than APF, and so for those still deep in the learning phase it usually makes for a noticeably superior loaf. It gives beginning bakers a bit of wiggle room.As for sprouted spelt, I’ve never used it (or any sprouted flour, for that matter) so I can’t offer anything useful here. But it’s definitely something I’d like to try in the future. And as far as which brands of flour I use, I have some conflicting thoughts on the matter . . .First of all, I love experimenting. Whether it’s trying different techniques, different recipes, or different flours — it’s all good. It keeps baking fresh and fun. Additionally, I love the unique flavors of heirloom grains, ancient grains, and other non-standard grains. So I consider using different and hard-to-find flours to be a joy.However . . .Not everyone has access to such a wide selection of flours. The ability to choose a locally sourced organic heirloom variety of wheat (often freshly ground, no less) is a privilege that most will never have. I’m strongly of the opinion that great bread comes from the heart. It’s not the flour that matters, it’s the baker. Those who bake with soul will make amazing bread, no matter the flour they use.So with that in mind, I prefer to use flour that’s more accessible to a wider group. Of course, that’s a relative thing in itself. I typically use King Arthur flour for the majority of my baking, and that’s what I prefer to use in my recipes. In the area that I live, it’s easily available in the local grocery stores, and not too expensive. In some places, however, it may also fall into a category of “rare” or expensive.But we make do, no?And thanks for the holiday cheer! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well!Cheers!TrevorReply
          • Vivian saysDecember 26, 2016 at 1:15 PMTrevor
            I just found this reply after asking a similar question on the Pan Bread Blog. I didn’t remember which area to find my response .
            Thanks for the detailed reply . I am sure all your followers appreciate the time you take to answer everyone.
            ViviReply
26. Harris saysDecember 20, 2016 at 6:15 AMHello, I will try in the weekend!
    Can I substitute spelt flour with emmer flour?If I want to use a kitchen mixer, how long do you think I should mix?ThanksReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 21, 2016 at 4:50 PMYou can certainly substitute emmer for the spelt. It won’t provide exactly the same flavor or dough consistency, but should still work fine. You may need to adjust the hydration a bit in order to get a similar consistency — a little trial and error should lead you the way with that.As for how long to mix with a mixer, I couldn’t say since I do all my mixing by hand. Better to judge by the dough’s development rather than by time. Mix until smooth and supple, probably on low in order to mimic the gentle kneading you would get with hand mixing. Good luck!TrevorReply
27. Harris saysDecember 27, 2016 at 4:50 AMOk so I tried the receipt with the ingredients you have. I mixed with a mixing machine for 5-6 minutes with low speed. The only other difference was the numbers of S&F. I did 3-4 every 30 minutes the first hours and then I had only time for one more, and one before putting the dough on the table.
    My dough was a little bit sticky and after the several S&F the dough was fluffy. I had it inside an orthogonal plastic jar, and after 30 minutes the dough was spread all over the jar and couldn’t keep the shape.
    After proofing, when I put the dough on to the stone in the oven (I don’t have a dutch oven) it spread all over and was about 2-3cm thick. The rise was small after baking.
    So I was wondering what causes this dough not to keep it’s shape? Is it the type of flour (bread flour with 13.8% protein)? Is it a non very active starter? (http://www.breadwerx.com/make-50-whole-wheat-sourdough-video/#comment-683). Or the number of stretch and folds?
    ThanksReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 28, 2016 at 2:18 PMHey Harris, the most likely reason that your dough spread out like a pancake is a combination of underproofing during the bulk stage, and developing insufficient surface tension during shaping.It’s very important that dough (especially wetter dough like this) develop enough gas during the bulk fermentation to hold shape. Otherwise loaves spread wide instead of standing tall. Bulk fermentation is where the dough develops most of its internal structure — the combination of gas accumulation and the layering of the folds is what develops the dough structure. Gas is most important here. Without adequate gas formation, no amount of folding will compensate.The dough should rise at least 30% in volume (though 50% might be better) during the bulk stage. If the dough fails to rise this much then the dough will lack structure and likely spread and flatten. Dough that doesn’t rise much during the bulk stage is often a result of an insufficiently active starter. As I mentioned to you previously, if your starter doesn’t at least double in volume within 8 hours of refreshment (tripling in volume is better) then your starter is too sluggish to give your dough a strong rise.The second issue is with shaping. This recipe is not for beginners — even experienced bakers will have difficulty handling such wet dough if they’re new to high hydration bread. Even if you have a nicely bulked and well structured dough, it still requires skilled shaping to get slack dough to hold a nice shape. If you don’t have the shaping skills to develop a high degree of surface tension during shaping then the dough will just flatten out when you turn it out for baking. That’s why I always recommend that beginning bakers make bread from stiff dough so that they can develop their handling skills. Over time, as their shaping skills improve, then they can start slowly increasing the hydration bit by bit. But attempting a wet dough such as this too early will just end in flat loaves and frustration.Cheers!TrevorReply
      • Harris saysDecember 29, 2016 at 6:03 AMHmm didn’t know how important gas was, thanks very much. I have read in some receipts to degas the dough prior to final proofing. Do you do that? Does it depend on the receipt?Yes maybe my starter was not very active. To tell you the truth I don’t feed it every day. It’s a lot of flour waste (or so I think). I usually feed 50g of starter with 50g flour+50g water. After 8 hours it usually has risen in volume but only after 15 hours or so I do see lots of bubbles on the surface. Nevertheless even after 8 hours (with little bubble on top) it passes the floating test. I will try to feed more and see the results.Thanks a lotReply
        • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 29, 2016 at 10:07 AMThink of it this way — as dough accumulates gas it begins to inflate. This inflation is what allows it to hold shape and stand tall. It’s just like a balloon. If you have a balloon that’s fully inflated it’s round and nicely shaped. It’s taut and it keeps a nice shape. But if you have a balloon with little air inside — barely inflated at all — then it just flops around. It doesn’t have a full round shape. It’s limp, lifeless and has no strength or tension.That’s why you need a minimum amount of gas accumulation in your dough during the bulk stage. Without that gas inside, the dough simply can’t hold a nice shape no matter how tightly you shape it. It’ll spread out and flatten, just like an under-inflated balloon. And this effect is compounded by the hydration of the dough. Very stiff dough can hold a decent shape with minimal gas accumulation, but wet dough needs a greater amount of gas inside in order to hold a nice shape.As for if I ever degas my dough — sometimes I do. But it depends on what I’m looking for from my bread. Tartine style loaves, as well as most other modern artisan style breads, do not benefit from degassing. Degassing creates a tighter crumb structure, whereas most of the time bakers are looking for a more open structure.Sandwich breads, on the other hand, can often benefit from degassing because they’re supposed to have a finer, more even crumb. This is especially true with soft yeasted sandwich breads. There are a few other occasions when I might degas. Sometimes I use a method that incorporates frequent and heavy degassing in order to dramatically prolong fermentation (for more flavor), create extra dough strength, and make a finer, but lighter textured crumb. But that’s a different style of bread than what you see here. Like I said, it just depends on what I’m looking for from my bread.But even with heavy degassing there will still be plenty of internal gas remaining inside the loaf. You’d have to roll it completely flat with a rolling pin in order to knock out all the gas. Many old school bakers make a point of degassing their loaves before shaping. They do so to avoid an overly irregular and open crumb. The fact is that this trend towards extreme openness and large holes is a relatively new thing, much of it due to the popularity of Chad Robertson and his Tartine bread. But back in the day, big holes were seen as a flaw. Something to be avoided. Hence the common method of degassing before shaping.Regarding your starter, I can say with almost sure certainty that your starter is likely unhealthy and inactive. Your maintenance routine, along with your description of it’s very slow activity level, paint a picture of a weak and sluggish (possibly proteolytic) starter. Just because a starter can pass the float test doesn’t mean it’s a strong healthy starter. The float test isn’t the best way to determine starter activity. It’s really just a measure of how much gas the starter contains — it’s a measure of accumulation, not activity. It’s perfectly possible to have a sluggish starter that eventually creates enough gas to pass the float test, but the dough will still be just as sluggish as the starter. That’s why rate of rise is a better measure (i.e. doubling or tripling in volume within 8 hours).Now, it looks to me that you have two issues going on here:1) Infrequent feeding — at least if you keep it out at room temp, that is. Room temp starters need to be fed at least once a day, but more often twice a day (or more if the weather is very warm). If you keep it in the fridge, then you only need to feed it once every week or two. However, that’s assuming your starter is healthy to begin with. Meaning that it’s active and not overly acidic. Which brings me to point number two . . .2) Acid accumulation because of a too large seed inoculation. Your feed ratio is 1:1:1 (starter:water:flour). That’s not dilute enough to remove the acid load, especially considering the infrequent feeding. A more common ratio would be something like 1:2:2. Since you’re not removing enough acid at each feeding, the acid accumulates to the point where it begins to harm the starter health. Your starter may even be proteolytic at this point (gluten dissolving). If your starter is runny like glue (rather than spongy and cohesive) and drips from your fingers rather than clinging to them then you have a proteolytic starter. Proteolytic starter makes for weak, sticky and shaggy dough.As far as maintaining your starter, you don’t need to keep it at room temp with twice a day feeds. You’re right, that burns through a lot of flour. Most bakers prefer to keep their starter in the fridge and feed it just once a week or so. BUT, you need to get your starter healthy and active before you refrigerate it. Here’s a basic suggestion on how to return your starter to health . . .First, do a massive discard to remove the acid load — something like 1:5:5. Then keep it at room temperature for a few days feeding it every 12 hours or so at a 1:2:2 ratio. Once your starter consistently doubles in volume within 8 hours of refreshment (tripling would be even better) then you can consider refrigerating it. When you decide to bake, take it out a day before you plan to use it and give it two room temperature feeds, 12 hours apart, at a 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 ratio. This should remove the acid load that it accumulated in the fridge and bring it back to full strength.When it comes to successful sourdough, starter health is key. The number one priority for any would-be sourdough baker is to learn to manage their starter. Those who don’t learn this fundamental skill will never find consistent success with their sourdough. Best of luck!TrevorReply
          • Harris saysJanuary 2, 2017 at 7:25 AMWow! Thanks for the detailed info and have a nice baking year.I started doing what you said. I did a 1:5:5 feeding. Well I did it twice because I couldn’t remember if I have done it!
            Now it’s 1:2:2 time.For some reason I though 1:1:1 would make a more active starter. Do you ever feed with 1:1:1?Reply
            • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 3, 2017 at 10:36 AMFeeding your starter at a 1:1:1 ratio will make for a quicker rising starter in the short term. But if maintained at that refreshment ratio over time, then the starter will burn through its food supply too quickly, accumulate acid and become unhealthy. So to answer your question, yes I do sometimes feed my starter at a 1:1:1 ratio, but it’s usually just a one-time event with the purpose of making a quickly rising young starter. However, I never maintain the starter at that ratio for the reasons mentioned above.Reply
          • Harris saysJanuary 4, 2017 at 6:42 AMOne more question. Is 12 hours feeding a must.
            For example, I baked yesterday. I fed my starter again with 1:2:2 at around 10pm.I will bake again after 2 days, so tomorrow night I should do a last feed to have an active starter on the morning. I think 2 days is little time to refrigerate my starter , right?
            Do I have to keep feeding every 12 hours? If for some reason (or for flour economy!) I cannot feed in 12 hours, the next feed (in 24 hours) will be 1:2:2 or something else?Thanks a lot for your help!Reply
            • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 12:58 PMThis is one of those questions with no clear answer. It really just depends. There are too many variables to say what you should do in this case — things like your starter’s current activity level/health, ambient temperature, refreshment ratios, etc. Feeding every 12 hours is not a rule, it’s a guideline. It’s up to each individual baker to find a schedule that works well for them and their starter in their particular circumstances.That said . . .If it were me, and I was going to bake in 2 days and didn’t want to feed my starter during that time then I would probably just refrigerate my starter for a day and a half, then I would take it out and feed it at room temp one time at about 12 hours or so before I planned to use it in my dough. I would probably feed it at 1:2:2 or 1:3:3 depending on how acidic it seemed (the more acidic it is, the smaller the seed amount I would use in this case).But like I said, it really just depends on your starter and your circumstances. The answer to what you should do will vary — that’s just part of sourdough baking. It’s more art than science, and you need to learn the rhythms of your starter and learn to work with it. That takes time, but it’s part of the joy as well.Reply
28. Parpy saysJanuary 9, 2017 at 2:45 AMHi TrevorYour website is extremely insightful. I was wondering if there is any substitution if I am not using bread and spelt flour? Can I just use all purpose flour with rye? What would the mix percentage be like? Thank youReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 2:04 PMThanks Parpy, I’m glad you like it! You can certainly use all-purpose and rye, but keep in mind that you’ll be making a completely different bread than this one. You’ll likely need to reduce the hydration by quite a bit since bread flour and whole grain flour both soak up more water than all-purpose.I can’t really tell you what mix percentage to use because it will be a different recipe and your flours will be different than mine. But I can certainly give you a speculative suggestion — keep the amount of rye the same, replace the bread flour and whole spelt with all-purpose, and reduce the hydration by 5% to 10% or until you get a similar consistency to this dough. That said, keep in mind that this recipe is not for beginners, so if you’re new to high hydration dough then this might not be the best recipe for you. Wet dough can be extremely difficult to handle, and inexperienced bakers usually end up with flat loaves when working with such wet dough. Good luck!TrevorReply
      • Parpy saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 8:08 PMHi TrevorThank you very much for your advise. Working with wet dough for a beginner like me is no easy business. Been through a lot of flats…Adding to that, my ambient room temperature is around 27 degrees C and that added to other considerations that I am still trying to understand. I sure hope you can give me some pointers to this especially on the bulk fermentation and pulling intervals at such an environmentParpyReply
29. Giel saysJanuary 9, 2017 at 2:51 PMHi Trevor,Nice bread! What size banneton do you use?Regards GielReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 2:10 PMHi Giel, the basket in this video is 9″ long and can hold up to 1000g of dough or so (depending upon the dough), though 800g seems to be the sweet spot for me. Cheers!TrevorReply
30. James saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 6:29 AMHi Trevor –I love your site! I’ve been baking a few loaves a week now – I’m a relative newbie – and your site is one of the best I’ve found for learning technique. Thanks so much for all the effort you put into these – I really appreciate it.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysJanuary 10, 2017 at 2:13 PMYou’re very welcome James! I’m glad I can help out a bit! Best of luck on your baking journey!Cheers!TrevorReply
31. Jersey Pie Boy saysJanuary 11, 2017 at 12:13 PMHi Trevor.So I’m working at learning these skills and I see from reading some of the comments (not sure which thread here) that I’ve been making the mistake of holding out a fair amount of total formula water from autolyse, and adding it back in during mix. Boy, that’s hard, and a sloppy, wet mess..Gloppy is the word. My question is, would this maybe explain why the most recent bake, which was just over 10% whole wheat and the rest bread flour, was disappointingly dense when I cut the loaf in half. But…When I sliced the half loaf into crosswise slices, there was a nice open crumb. Huh? Surprise! Is this because my misguided mix didn’t distribute ingredients evenly..or this from not cutting in levain fully enough. It was a great tasting bread, and if I only look at the slices, really nice. Don’t tell on me LOLReply
32. Mordy saysJanuary 21, 2017 at 12:17 PMHello Trevor,
    Want to thank you again for your excellent blog. I made this loaf and had amazing results. Yet there 2 issues that I want to improve.
    1. I think I can have higher loaf – I followed the instructions step by step, when I took it out from the proofing basked it was flatten. In your video I see that the dough holds itself while my dough doesn’t.
    2. Would like to have more tender loaf – I compare the results to bakery loaf. The bakery loaf interior is more tender. May it be due to oil / gluten that they add? Do you have any idea to get more tender loaf?Thanks in advance,
    MordyReply
33. Zachary saysJanuary 25, 2017 at 7:40 PMHey there. I found your page through Instagram. Your bread looks great!! Just wanted to ask: what kind/bread of flour are you using? King Arthur?Reply
34. Tim saysJanuary 31, 2017 at 12:19 PMHey Trevor,I love the way you write your blog posts, very clear and informative!
    I want to give this recipe a try, but since i live in the Netherlands the flower absorbs less water so I’m thinking I lower the hydration a bit to 70-75% to avoid extremely sticky dough. Do I need to change anything else in this recipe, like the autolyse time?Hope you make a new blogpost soon, can’t wait!Cheers,TimReply
35. Nat Mercuri saysFebruary 5, 2017 at 6:41 AMI thoroughly enjoyed ready of your experience… Thank you for sharing your skill on line and I look forward to following your blog.
    One question, I hope its not stupid… Can this process be done in a mixer?
    How do they work the dough in a commercial environment?Reply
36. Ogi the Yogi saysApril 1, 2017 at 10:52 PMThis recipe was going so well for me until the shaping, the pre-shape went well, I used a wet hand and dough scrapper for the pre-shape and follow your technique to the t.My issues began during the shaping, the dough was stuck to the table as I was trying to pick it up to flip it, in your video during this period your dough looks much drier I am not sure how you achieved this without using flour at some period before flipping the dough for the final shape. Once I managed to flip the dough to do the final shape the same thing was happening, I floured the table lightly as you state, and the dough was once again sticking to the table.I am used to manipulating high hydration doughs but your dough in the video looks drier than mine. During the s/f the dough looked exactly as yours, I am not sure how your dough managed to get drier during the final shaping. The bulk ferment went very well, very airy dough with various size bubbles.Any advice on what I might have missed, should I have used more flour?I understand that you are an expert and have experience hands but I am not why we hand such significantly different (wet vs dry) doughs at the final shaping stage.I would really appreciate you help on this.Reply
    • Trevor Wilson saysApril 9, 2017 at 8:52 PMHey Ogi, since I’m not there to see your dough in person I can’t really say why my dough seemed drier than yours. One thing to be aware of is that the flour I use to dust with when shaping doesn’t show up so well in the video — there’s a bit more there than it seems. So that might be contributing to the effect.But also . . .If the dough was sticking to my hands and the bench, would it not seem wetter?Sticky dough appears wet, whereas non-sticky dough does not. But the stickiness of dough is relative to the hands of the baker. That means that the appearance of wetness is also in the hands of the baker. In less experienced hands, this dough would appear wetter.Such is the nature of dough.So on that front, I can’t really offer any help. But I can offer this — if the dough is too wet for comfortable shaping, then the dough is too wet period. By all means, use more flour on the table if that helps (and it usually does, up to a point). But the best path is the one of intelligent progression — from stiff to wet. If you step too far beyond your ability, you do yourself no favors. In the end, rushing only slows us down.Cheers!TrevorReply
37. Arthur saysApril 15, 2017 at 7:13 AMHi Trevor.
    Thank you for the great article. I am a big fan.
    Question: What kind of fabric do you use to line a basket? My high hydration dough is always sticking to the liner in the basket – very annoying!
    Cheers,
    ArthurReply
38. Arthur saysApril 17, 2017 at 1:27 PMHi Trevor.
    Thank you for the great article and video. Really enjoyed both. I have a question. What kind of fabric do you use to line the basket and cover the dough. If I making high hydration dough it is always stick to the liner – very annoying. Do you use rice flour as well?
    Tank you,
    ArthurReply
39. Peter Lutek saysJune 4, 2017 at 10:29 AMthanks a lot, trevor… your gentle and patient method is totally pulling up my sourdough game! 🙂one question: if i’m doubling this for two loaves, at what point would you recommend dividing? i’m thinking it would stay as one through the bulk ferment/fold, then i’d divide just before pre-shaping.make sense?Reply
40. Douwe van Leeuwen saysNovember 29, 2017 at 7:06 AMI just bought your pdf book about open crumb. Looks very interesting so far. I tried out your Tartine style loaf yesterday. I cheated on almost everything, shorter autolyse, shorter bulk en shorter cold retarding. But it came out pretty ok. A little underbaked in the middle but pretty decent crumb. As I didn’t have any spelt I used french t80 flour instead. Today I’m trying again and using whole meal barley instead of the spelt. I use barley a lot cause it gives such a nice flavor. Today I have some more time so I’ll the times more to the letter. Is there a big difference with barleymeal as opposed to speltmeal, gluten or otherwise? Really like the website and videos and your pics on instagram.
    Heres the link to images of my loafCountry loaf https://imgur.com/gallery/YB8GSReply
    • Trevor Wilson saysDecember 4, 2017 at 8:39 PMHi Douwe, your loaf looks fantastic! Nicely done! I’ve never baked with barley flour, so I can’t say for sure what the differences would be. I’ve only ever used pearl barley for making porridge breads, but that’s quite different from barley flour. But I did find this reference that you may find helpful . . .https://www.kingarthurflour.com/guides/baking-with-ancient-grains/barley-flour/I hope that helps out a bit. And I hope you like the book!Cheers!TrevorReply
41. Sven saysJanuary 30, 2018 at 7:31 AMHi Trevor,as usual: very impressive skills! I was wondering: how do I get to have a 24h retard? I am always hitting my sweet spot at around 12h @39°F. Did your fridge actually almost hit the 32°F? Any suggestions?Thanks a lot.
    SvenReply
42. Dianna Wilson saysMarch 12, 2018 at 12:30 PMHello Trevor!
    Of all the videos I’ve watched and I’ve watched them ALL on YouTube for Tartine bread, yours has been the most instructive and enjoyable for me. Thank you!! Now the embarrassing question. When trying to avoid over browning the bottom by using inverted sheet pans, are the sheet pans placed directly under the Dutch oven(touching) or on a separate rack under the Dutch oven? Thanks again for all you do.Reply
43. Irene saysMarch 24, 2018 at 10:33 PMHello Trevor,I love your site and Ive watched all your videos! Thank you for all the excellent and easy to follow information you give on the art of baking a great loaf of bread.My question: I have just finished baking your tartine style country bread and I noticed that when I tipped the bread into my baking pan from the batard brotform that the dough just flopped in and spread out instead of holding its batard shape. When it was finished baking it turned out flat with no shape. It tastes excellent!! But doesn’t look so good 🙁What did I do wrong? I have a feeling that I may have overproofed the dough.Thank you very much,
    IreneReply
44. Dallas Knight saysMarch 25, 2018 at 8:24 PMHello Trevor
    Thank you for sharing your knowledge and skill.
    I am currently slightly obsessed with making sourdough from my excellent starter (made from scratch).
    Everything is working well, apart from being able to make professional – looking slashes prior to baking.
    The knife (trying a ‘Stanely Knife – very sharp and thin) from the hardware store) but it still drags the dough more than I would like.Thanks
    DallasReply
45. addie saysApril 13, 2018 at 10:39 AMHi trevor! first of all, I just love your blog and I am a big fan of you.I had no problem baking your other recipes but this one.. my oven heats up to 482f(250c) at max. what should I do to bring it up to 500f?I have a baking steel so last time I put it right underneath the combo cooker and it burnt the bottom of the loaf.I am thinking about placing baking steel on the very bottom rack and then place combo cooker on the middle rack. any other idea please??? or should I just give up on this one?Reply
46. addie saysApril 13, 2018 at 10:41 AMHi trevor! first of all, I just love your blog and I am a big fan of you.I had no problem baking your other recipes but this one.. my oven heats up to 482f(250c) at max. what should I do to bring it up to 500f?I have a baking steel so last time I put it right underneath the combo cooker and it burnt the bottom of the loaf.I am thinking about placing baking steel on the very bottom rack and then place combo cooker on the middle rack. any other idea please??? or should I just give up on this one?all the best from S. Korea!Reply
47. Chun saysOctober 15, 2018 at 12:01 PMHi Trevorwhy the dough slacking after S&F .Reply
48. Ronald Alterman saysNovember 15, 2018 at 12:50 PMHi Trevor, thank you for your videos and your ebook. They have really helped. I took a Tartine sourdough making class about 9 months ago and it’s been kind of a struggle to get a great loaf. I have varied all kinds of things to try to get a good loaf. I get better with every batch, but I’m not happy yet. I do have a couple questions about you video and book. I ha.ve a couple questions. I make my dough in a steel bowl similar to yours.One thing I noticed about you videos and photos is that your dough doesn’t stick to the side of the bowl anywhere near as much as mine. You bowl looks almost clean. I don’t get why mine is so much messier? The second thing is your crumb. In you book and videos you talk about being gentle with the dough. I was taught to stretch the dough during folding and I never stretch it far enough to tear, but I do stretch it. I get a decent crumb, but I notice that you are far gentler with the dough and you don’t go though the elaborate shaping that I was taught. Is that the reason that your crumb is so airy? My last question has more to do with higher hydration but even 70%. When I put my bread in the cast iron pot, why does my dough spread out so much? I would like to play around with scoring designs, but the spreading out makes it impossible.Reply
49. Handri saysNovember 15, 2018 at 10:28 PMHi Trevor, i followed your instruction & made my first beautiful sourdough!! Thank you!!
    But i only did until 5th folding section cause it is already enough stiff & leave it to chiller for about 12 hours, and baked after that. My question: is it better to do that or just go bake it after 5th or 6th folding section?Reply
    • Agnes Nemes-Chow saysNovember 28, 2018 at 11:23 AMHi Trevor,I’ve been reading your book and learning lots from it. While trying to improve my dough handling skills, I realise one of my big problems is dough temperature as I live in a country with tropical climate. Temperature is over 30 degree celsius and very humid. Do you have any tips on how to ensure correct dough temperature? Even if I use cold water, the dough quickly comes to room temperature. Taking dough in and out of the fridge is not really working either.Thanks!
      AgnesReply
      • Agnes Nemes-Chow saysNovember 28, 2018 at 11:24 AMSorry it was meant to be a new question, not a reply to this.Reply
    • Agnes Nemes-Chow saysNovember 28, 2018 at 11:28 AMSorry I meant to ask a new question, not to reply to this.Reply